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      12-17-2011, 02:19 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco44 View Post
+1 The posters who live in winter climates and don't buy winter tires have all sorts of excuses and rationalizations.
+2 The posters who drive on roads with a surface temperature of less than 7 degrees C, are forgetting their Duty of Care to other road users, pedestrians and the occupants of the vehicle they drive.
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      12-17-2011, 02:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by TogMogX3 View Post
I am so sorry to take exception to your reasoning for NOT fitting winter tyres to an X3 (or any other vehicle) unless one complies with any of your serials 1 - 4.

The well proven facts are that all vehicles operating in countries with an ambient temperature below 7 degrees C, benefit from the implementation of Winter Tyres.
He's comparing winters with all seasons not with summer tyres. Although I can see the benefits of winter tyres in the snow, the 7C marker is misleading IMO. If you look at the stats at 5C the winters make only about 5% difference to stopping distance on wet roads. You'd get much more benefit by simply driving more conservatively. They actually increase stopping distance at 5C on dry roads. Get them if you see a lot of snow annually and get regular temperatures in and around freezing. If you don't, the benefits are negligible.
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      12-18-2011, 01:51 AM   #91
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English opinions?

A lot of the English (and here I am using it not as an accidental substitute for British) are in that marginal zone from what I can make out. Winter tyres would be great for that once a year big snow fall that lasts a week at most.

I have seen, for the first time, TV ads for winter tyres which are cashing in on last winter's problems.

Northern England and higher ground often get more falls but it is still patchy from winter to winter and when it arrives. Last year we had major snow before Christmas - fairly rare in England.

The key message for me of all these posts is to drive within the limits of your equipment. Go carefully or not at all. The thing that makes me cringe is seeing Chelsea Tractor drivers careering about as if they are invincible and getting a nasty surprise when they try to stop or go round a corner.

I would be interested to hear a winter tyre view from anyone living in England south of Birmingham.
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      12-18-2011, 03:48 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardoyak View Post
English opinions?


I would be interested to hear a winter tyre view from anyone living in England south of Birmingham.



Sir, in answer to to your request above; please be advised that currently I am "living in England south of Birmingham". However, that has not always been the case for I have lived, worked and had to drive many types of vehicle, on and off road literally "between the Poles". I have visited both Poles and most other countries in between thanks to the generosity of the British tax payer.

To some there might be a clue about me in the login name which I use. TogMog; TOG, remember Terry Wogan and what TOG meant? MOG on the other hand is short for Morgan, the "First, the last and some say the best of the real English Sports Cars". In other words I am old but still very, very bold.........'onest!

I am old enough to remember the days when winter tyres were never even contemplated by anyone, as they were not available to us. Even those driving on snow and ice most of the time (as I have had to do) had to either use snow chains or when they became available studs. We used such narrow wheels and tyres in those days which were fitted to relatively low powered vehicles, that one had no alternative but to take eleven hours to travel from Aldershot to York in a blizzard. As a side note the car was a self built Lotus Mk5 and open topped too!,

All that said, over the years I have picked up a thing or two along the way. I like to think that everyday is a school day, also, that I am not too old to learn (I produced this message on my iPad). But most of all I do not like to see others make the same mistakes which I have made. Both on and off the race track I have learned that technology moves on, engines, chassis, transmissions, electronic systems, etc. We all know this yet there are still those who fail to acknowledge that tyre technology has also improved/evolved, whatever; therefore, when the conditions are right we ignore advances in tyre technology at our peril!

The fact remains that when the temperature drops below 7 degrees C; Winter Tyres will perform better in the vast majority of conditions, which will be experienced by the vast majority of drivers, even below Birmingham!

Why do I rant on about this subject on this site? Well, the chances are that while I am out driving during the cold weather, that some "Chelsea Tractor" driver (as you put it) will cause an accident while NOT driving on winter tyres...............and no, I do not work in the tyre industry.

All that said, I do believe that I too have a duty of care to other road users and that I should do all that is in my power to ensure that I will not cause injury to others. After all after spending upwards of £38k on an X3, the £1400 spent on winter wheels and tyres seems like 'small beer' for my piece of mind.

Do have a safe Christmas everyone.
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      12-19-2011, 12:51 AM   #93
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To put the safety improvements of winter tyres at below 7C into some perspective, their best improvement on stopping distance is obviously on snow and ice and according to most figures I've seen you get about a 20% improvement which is pretty good











http://www.conti-online.com/generato...winter_en.html


At 4/5C, which is my main gripe as lots of manufacturers justify the cost by looking at average temperatures and suggesting anything below 7C makes winter tyres a necessity, the improvement on wet roads is visible but now only about 10%, e.g. Contis below



http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/wint...ditions/259257



So you could argue it's worth getting them even if you get hardly any snow for this 10% improvement. But then compare this to the % improvement you get from using a brand new tyre over a slightly worn tyre and then against a legal minimum tread tyre.



The difference between the stopping distance on a new tyre and at 3mm (the point at which the manufacturer recommends you replace it) is 22%. If you take it down to the UK legal limit it's 53%!! So the 10% you get at 4C above is nothing in comparison to using a new tyre over a slightly worn one.

And re. driving safely, your stopping distance is most affected by your speed and you can easily decrease your stopping distance much more than you ever could by using different tyres by simply reducing your speed in treacherous conditions. You could argue some people on winters go too fast because they think they have more of a safety net

In summary and IMHO, get winter tyres 100% (although all seasons may suffice for some) if you get a lot of snow and freezing temperatures but forget the 7C threshold as a justification. 7C is simply the point at which the stopping distance graph starts to show marginal improvement - albeit only on wet roads. The statistics produced by the tyre manufacturers themselves don't provide any meaningful improvement at 7C.

Feel free to shout me down and provide some different statistics
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      12-19-2011, 12:00 PM   #94
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Just on the subject of winter tyres; we had our first snow on Friday up here in the North East. I live down in an estate and have a sloping drive, which was covered in snow on top of ice, I decided to pick up my previously ordered winter tyres, the car was fitted with the 19'' option tyres which were as good as new as the car only had 300 miles on the clock.
It managed to get out of the estate with slight wheel spin in various areas; I collected the tyres and returned home, on the drive even at crawling speed the vehicle was sliding away and to one side following the slope of the drive. We fitted the winter tyres and I could not believe the transformation in performance, the X3 travelled out the estate with no wheel spin at all and was was totaly in control going back down the slope. I think it is money well spent considering the overall cost of the car; the problem is not as much having traction going up hills as it was having control of the vehicle going down and been able to stop when needed.
The following day we were behind a vehicle that spun 180 degrees whilst going down a hill and trying to turn into a side road, I stopped with no problem at all on the ice.
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      12-19-2011, 04:46 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennygee View Post
Just on the subject of winter tyres; I think it is money well spent considering the overall cost of the car; the problem is not as much having traction going up hills as it was having control of the vehicle going down and been able to stop when needed.
I for one are so pleased that you did not have to learn the hard way about the benefits of winter tyres.

"Stay safe - the alternative can bring tears to your eyes"
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      12-19-2011, 09:08 PM   #96
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I agree that winter tires are better. The cost of them, however, is not zero. In my case, I do not have room to store eight tires (for my wife and me). What do people do that have a storage dilemma? If I had unlimited funds and unlimited space, I would definitely do winter tires. In my current situation I will have to just drive more slowly.
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      12-19-2011, 09:13 PM   #97
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I have used the same storage facility in Chicago for a number of years to store the spare set of wheels and tires. Every Spring and Winter they switch them out, and put the spare set away. If you live in a high-rise it's your only option.
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      12-19-2011, 09:20 PM   #98
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some dealers will store them for you for a "nominal" fee...
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      12-21-2011, 12:35 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennygee View Post
Just on the subject of winter tyres; we had our first snow on Friday up here in the North East. I live down in an estate and have a sloping drive, which was covered in snow on top of ice, I decided to pick up my previously ordered winter tyres, the car was fitted with the 19'' option tyres which were as good as new as the car only had 300 miles on the clock.
It managed to get out of the estate with slight wheel spin in various areas; I collected the tyres and returned home, on the drive even at crawling speed the vehicle was sliding away and to one side following the slope of the drive. We fitted the winter tyres and I could not believe the transformation in performance, the X3 travelled out the estate with no wheel spin at all and was was totaly in control going back down the slope. I think it is money well spent considering the overall cost of the car; the problem is not as much having traction going up hills as it was having control of the vehicle going down and been able to stop when needed.
The following day we were behind a vehicle that spun 180 degrees whilst going down a hill and trying to turn into a side road, I stopped with no problem at all on the ice.
Good justification for them but only if you get snow more than once or twice a year (10C MINIMUM, 12C maximum in Reading today, not a single flake of snow has fallen here so far this winter and I would guess at most 2 days for the whole winter where there might be enough snow on the road for winter tyres to help) .

My gripe is the claims of greatly increased safety at anything below 7C which is nonsense IMO and is you can see from what I posted above you can get much more benefit from having less worn tyres.
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      12-21-2011, 01:48 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuco44 View Post
+1 The posters who live in winter climates and don't buy winter tires have all sorts of excuses and rationalizations.
Yeah, like how much it costs. I'd say it's pretty rational.

But I'm probably wrong...everyone makes a seven figure income here, right? Gee, I must be in the wrong forum if that's not the standard!

Last edited by xDrive35i; 12-21-2011 at 01:53 AM..
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      12-21-2011, 03:48 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfax View Post
Good justification for them but only if you get snow more than once or twice a year (10C MINIMUM, 12C maximum in Reading today, not a single flake of snow has fallen here so far this winter and I would guess at most 2 days for the whole winter where there might be enough snow on the road for winter tyres to help) .

My gripe is the claims of greatly increased safety at anything below 7C which is nonsense IMO and is you can see from what I posted above you can get much more benefit from having less worn tyres.
My gripe is that there are those who fail to acknowledge well proven facts. Please read the many reports on winter tyre performance, they all give the same message and it is so simple to understand too. Try Google: winter tyre reports.

On a side note: thank you for informing me that my incar temperature gauge is giving false readings, I will have it checked out immediately. Yesterday when I drove into Reading and home again in the evening the gauge registered less that 7C on both journeys.
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      12-21-2011, 05:16 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TogMogX3 View Post
My gripe is that there are those who fail to acknowledge well proven facts. Please read the many reports on winter tyre performance, they all give the same message and it is so simple to understand too. Try Google: winter tyre reports.

On a side note: thank you for informing me that my incar temperature gauge is giving false readings, I will have it checked out immediately. Yesterday when I drove into Reading and home again in the evening the gauge registered less that 7C on both journeys.
You completely miss the point. I’ve quoted the facts. Read my post above. The statistics above come from tyre manufacturers so if anything they are likely to be biased in favour of buying winter tyres. They say you get a 10% improvement in stopping distance at 5C on wet roads but stopping distance is actually increased on dry roads. That’s great but you can improve your stopping distance much more (like 50% rather than 10%) by not using worn tyres and not waiting until they approach the legal minimum. You can also decrease your stopping distance exponentially by driving more slowly in hazardous conditions. Winter tyres are great for driving in snow and I recommend them 100% for that purpose but the improvements you get at 5C are tiny (and they actually increase stopping distance on dry roads at this temperature) and the whole “anything below 7C and winter tyres are a necessity” argument is total nonsense.

I’ve taken the time to include statistics and references but you’ve quoted nothing other than suggesting a Google search. Please post some statistics and actually add some value to this thread rather than just blindly criticising. If you do this, you might actually convince me. I have an open mind and after all, I have winter tyres fitted but they were purchased with a view to driving in Europe. As it stands, you’ve convinced me of nothing.

Re. temperatures, I’m not sure what relevance yesterday’s temperature has on today’s temperature or why you would think your in car temperature gauge is more accurate than the equipment used at the met office (where I got my Reading temperatures from earlier). I’m assuming this was sarcasm but difficult to tell on a forum so if it wasn’t I apologise in advance.
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      12-21-2011, 05:27 AM   #103
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Get more than two variables in a conversation these days and folks fall off. We're trained to "Coke good Pepsi bad; BMW good Mercedes bad; Verizon good AT&T bad; iPhone is better than Blackberry; Winter tires are safer than Summers". Usually misleading, useless statements on their own -- but it's soooo much easier to just believe . . .
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      12-23-2011, 02:01 AM   #104
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Quote:
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Get more than two variables in a conversation these days and folks fall off. We're trained to "Coke good Pepsi bad; BMW good Mercedes bad; Verizon good AT&T bad; iPhone is better than Blackberry; Winter tires are safer than Summers". Usually misleading, useless statements on their own -- but it's soooo much easier to just believe . . .
+1 and I'm still waiting for those well proven facts that I apparently failed to acknowledge
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      12-23-2011, 08:47 AM   #105
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The facts about winter tire performance are abundantly clear. It's up to you how you want to interpret them.
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      12-23-2011, 09:03 AM   #106
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The facts about winter tire performance are abundantly clear. It's up to you how you want to interpret them.
I agree. You can interpret them disproportionately and blindly assume that anything below 7C makes them a necessity, or you can digest the statistics properly and come to a more informed conclusion based on cost and benefit
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      12-23-2011, 09:35 AM   #107
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I haven't owned a car in 20 years where I've not run with summer and winter tires. All Seasons are too big a compromise in my book if you like driving and value your safety.
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      12-23-2011, 09:38 AM   #108
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I haven't owned a car in 20 years where I've not run with summer and winter tires. All Seasons are too big a compromise in my book if you like driving and value your safety.
Yes, and I would probably do the same as you if I lived in Chicago but I live in southern England where you'll get maybe 2-3 days a year with snow on the ground, if that. I agree 100% with winter tyres if you get snow and freezing temperatures regularly
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      12-23-2011, 11:18 AM   #109
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Quote:
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I haven't owned a car in 20 years where I've not run with summer and winter tires. All Seasons are too big a compromise in my book if you like driving and value your safety.
+1
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      12-23-2011, 04:50 PM   #110
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Quote:
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Yes, and I would probably do the same as you if I lived in Chicago but I live in southern England where you'll get maybe 2-3 days a year with snow on the ground, if that. I agree 100% with winter tyres if you get snow and freezing temperatures regularly
Like you, I believe all-season tires are more than adequate for winter driving. Getting winter/snow tires is just tossing money aside. Besides, it's much easier to carry chains. (Getting others to see outside the box can be an exercise in futility.)
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