[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

Oooh a Tesla fan boy on a high horse.

Anyone who spent a day in marketing will tell you that it's branded to sell customers a dream. There's a reason why every other traditional car makers have opted to call their systems driver assistance systems and not auto pilots. Because L2 and L3 aren't autonomous driving systems. If you aren't sure, stop 30 average people (not pilots) in a mall and ask them what they understand by the term autopilot.

Haha really? "Fanboy"?

FYI I have tested cars for a living for over 10 years. I write about them. Make videos about them. I have produced reviews for TV (in Germany). Calling me a "fanboy" because I have arguments for a well made product that gets a lot of unjustified hate from people like yourself, doesn't really make you credible.

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

Can you clarify which software version the Tesla was running?

Looking at YouTube examples .. I believe it was AP2 V8; as the V9 appears to have a more centered car icon.
How much has changed between the two versions? In terms of the driver intervention requirements, system shut off when taking over, sudden steering wheel jerk, etc?? I read that the camera based tracking system has improved, along with GPS guided lane recognition for exit ramps and such.
Has the convenience problems from my write up been addressed or improved? I am speaking in terms of creature comforts and the little annoyances that I encountered.
As I mentioned before, the lane keeping assistance and surrounding environment capabilities are unmatched- but it's not easy to address the others little things which lack in the system's usage friendliness

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

Oooh a Tesla fan boy on a high horse.

There are two kinds of car forum members in the world: those who've driven a Tesla and those who call the first group fanboys.

[ecaedus]

i think you are pretty much spot on. you've pointed out plenty of small annoyances with autopilot that makes it less user friendly but i guess to me, what matters the most is which car can drive semi autonomously better, and i think autopilot is still indisputably the best system out there, for now.

I'm driving long trips on the highway from LA to Irvine every weekend purely on autopilot without the system making one intolerable mistake forcing me to disengage, i can't say the same about the latest BMW system i tested out in my friends new 530e

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Looking at YouTube examples .. I believe it was AP2 V8; as the V9 appears to have a more centered car icon.
How much has changed between the two versions? In terms of the driver intervention requirements, system shut off when taking over, sudden steering wheel jerk, etc?? I read that the camera based tracking system has improved, along with GPS guided lane recognition for exit ramps and such.
Has the convenience problems from my write up been addressed or improved? I am speaking in terms of creature comforts and the little annoyances that I encountered.
As I mentioned before, the lane keeping assistance and surrounding environment capabilities are unmatched- but it's not easy to address the others little things which lack in the system's usage friendliness

V8 and V9 are very different, and V9 did not improve every function of V8 - I think some things actually got worse (for example, parking spot detection seems to be flakier in V9). Also, the effect of the upgrade is different for different models. Some new functionality was added to S and X only, some things already present on S and X just appeared on 3, etc. Best I can do is go over your categories, based on driving an X loaner and my 3.

Autopilot is radically different. By now there's a whole bunch of videos on Youtube showing "Navigate on Autopilot" - take a look.

Emergency braking is adjustable. I suspect yours was in one of the more aggressive settings. (This is not a new feature, I'm guessing you just didn't know you could change the sensitivity.)

Steering override is just as it was in V8.

Disengagement - one of the clear improvements of V9 over V8. There are now fewer situations when it happens (see the first item), and when it does it's smoother.

Stop and go actually seems a bit worse. The car now leaves more space in front when stopping, in Boston, this is a serious problem because people in the other lanes see it as an invitation.

Hands on the wheel - given how everyone is eager to pounce on any accident involving a Tesla, the extra caution is no surprise. Still, all you have to do is hold the wheel on the side with one hand in such a way that the system feels the weight of the hand as an input.

Autopilot on regular streets just takes getting used to. Adaptive cruise works every time, but you need to learn what the right conditions are for the full autopilot (the double push of the stalk) to engage. This is one of the few things where reading the manual is actually useful. Also, 5 miles over speed limit is not fixed, you can adjust it up or down.

Self-parking - I've only used parallel parking, and it seems to be unchanged.

Finally, regarding creature comforts: heated steering wheel is a part of Premium Upgrades Package, so no different from any BMW model where it will also be optional. On the other hand, Model 3 doesn't offer it at all. On the third hand, with Teslafi service I just schedule the car's heater to turn on ten minutes before I leave, so I always get into a warm car. On the fourth hand, the heater consumes a lot of energy, reducing the range.

iDrive is something I don't miss at all - pretty much everything you can do with it can be done faster with the Tesla touchscreen. Tesla also wins the music competition: in a BMW, you have only AM/FM and Sirius, and anything else requires hooking up the phone; Tesla gives you built-in Slacker and Tunein, once you add a flash drive with your favorite tracks you don't need anything else. Tesla's nav is an order of magnitude better. However, BMW has office features that I miss in Tesla.

Ergonomics in general - for the driver, X was pretty much on par with X5 that I used to drive, for the passengers X wins hands down. 3, on the other hand, doesn't reach the level of F30 - materials and seats are noticeably worse. And I will never stop complaining about the absence of HUDs in Teslas.

[ADS-UK]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

There are two kinds of car forum members in the world: those who've driven a Tesla and those who call the first group fanboys.

Well, you have clearly assumed that I've never driven a Tesla. Thanks.

[ADS-UK]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

Haha really? "Fanboy"?

FYI I have tested cars for a living for over 10 years. I write about them. Make videos about them. I have produced reviews for TV (in Germany). Calling me a "fanboy" because I am have arguments for a well made product that gets a lot of unjustified hate from people like yourself, doesn't really make you credible.

I'm sorry but you haven't pointed out any factual errors in any of my posts apart from you not been a "fanboy". I'm sorry about assuming that.

I've focused on existing evidence and my real world experience having tried a Tesla. You on the other hand have focused on showcasing your expertise 1. Pilot? 2. Now a car tester? 3. Video producer? C'mon you can do better than that.

[kgroschi]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

I'm sorry but you haven't pointed out any factual errors in any of my posts apart from you not been a "fanboy". I'm sorry about assuming that.

I've focused on existing evidence and my real world experience having tried a Tesla. You on the other hand have focused on showcasing your expertise 1. Pilot? 2. Now a car tester? 3. Video producer? C'mon you can do better than that.

I fly Citation Mustangs and Phenom 300s. I can also fly A320s/A330s/A340s but don't have the necessary rating. I've been testing cars for over 10 years (my dad for about 35 years btw) and I produce car reviews. It's not rocket science and I am doing better actually. I also have a small business believe it or not.
You're just another hater who claims to point out "factual errors" because you drove a Tesla a day or maybe a week... I've been in your shoes a long, long time ago.
But it's fine. I don't need to convince anyone.

[ADS-UK]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

I fly Citation Mustangs and Phenom 300s. I can also fly A320s/A330s/A340s but don't have the necessary rating. I've been testing cars for over 10 years (my dad for about 35 years btw) and I produce car reviews. It's not rocket science and I am doing better actually. I also have a small business believe it or not.
You're just another hater who claims to point out "factual errors" because you drove a Tesla a day or maybe a week... I've been in your shoes a long, long time ago.
But it's fine. I don't need to convince anyone.

Again, lots of personal credentials and achievements. Good on you for achieving all that. I mean it.

But we live in a world of media and marketing spin. So, it's bloody important to get facts right and points out spin. World will certainly be a better place. Tesla autopilot isn't an autonomous driving system as they claim and that's a fact!

Btw, don't assume you've walked someone's shoes if you don't know them.

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

About time for them given the incidences. Ultimately it's not an autopilot system. Hugely misleading to call an assistance system an autopilot. .

My plane has a fairly advance autopilot for general aviation. It follows a course and can do vertical navigation (programmed altitude changes). It can't avoid other aircraft or adjust speed. The current automotive systems (Tesla, BMW, others) don't follow a complete GPS course but they speed up and slow down and have some traffic avoidance capabilities. They follow the road much like older, more limited aviation autopilots that followed VOR airways. I guess I see no problem with the name. Then again, I understand what the word autopilot means and what it doesn't.

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Low speed- cruise/AP:
BMW > Tesla
Maybe its just me, but I had a hard time trying to activate or re-activate the system when I was accelerating from 0 mph to below 35 mph. BMW seems to allow me activate adaptive cruise control function + steering anytime its available.
Tesla also limits your cruise control speed to 5mph max over any posted speed limits of 25 mph, and 35 mph.
Lastly, if you have your foot on the accelerator while the system is activated, a message pops up saying that the braking function is deactivated while your foot is on the accelerator (even if just a little bit).

Self parking:
BMW > Tesla
Some reason the Model X only shows the backup camera and PDCs when parking- so its very difficult to gauge if the self parking feature is going hit anything since the driver has no other visuals than the rear camera.
BMW on the other hand has both the top-down view and rear-view cameras available, with the optional 3-D when self parking. Both systems, you have to pass available parking space for it to recognize it, but Tesla does not have a dedicated parking button to start this feature, you have to go shuffle through the giant iPad screen to activate it.

Did you have creep on? If so, turn it off the next time. With creep off you can engage AP even when stopped. Also, creep off activates the HOLD function when stopped

Tesla won't allow more than 5 miles (or is it 10?) over the speed limit on secondary roads but has no problem with massive speeding on major roads or at least limited access roads.

I like surround view cameras a lot. It's too bad Tesla doesn't offer that. Tesla does show the "sonar" distance marks around the car and displays the smallest distance reading. Being able to bring up the rear view camera while driving is nice too.

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Looking at YouTube examples .. I believe it was AP2 V8; as the V9 appears to have a more centered car icon.
How much has changed between the two versions? In terms of the driver intervention requirements, system shut off when taking over, sudden steering wheel jerk, etc?? I read that the camera based tracking system has improved, along with GPS guided lane recognition for exit ramps and such.
Has the convenience problems from my write up been addressed or improved? I am speaking in terms of creature comforts and the little annoyances that I encountered.
As I mentioned before, the lane keeping assistance and surrounding environment capabilities are unmatched- but it's not easy to address the others little things which lack in the system's usage friendliness

V9 turned on all cameras. The graphics now show cars behind and off to the side although I find it only shows very close cars that are directly behind you. Side and back has more range. Also, the car icons are jittery. I think there is work to do matching the transition from one camera to another. The icons are now more accurate and will change from SUV to car to semi to motorcycle to person depending on the object. At night, however, they seem to drop back to just a car icon. Auto wipers seem better but still not as good as many other cars.

The short interval between touching the wheel is annoying. It was better till idiots posted videos of themselves moving out of the driver's seat.

While the press has focused on Tesla, any user of driver assist systems needs to be aware that recognizing stopped vehicles is difficult. To make the systems usable, you have to eliminate false positives. That means not slowing down because the road goes up a hill or under a bridge. You can't stop the car because of a road sign. Thus, objects that aren't moving are often ignored. Be safe.

[IS350]

Thanks for the comparison! I recently switched from a BMW M3 to Tesla, partly because the BMW offered nothing like Tesla's autopilot in the M3. I'm hoping the next M3 will.

Here's a link to some of my Tesla-BMW M3 perspectives, if interested. Please subscribe, if you have any questions.

https://www.youtube.com/user/M3rewards

[andrewX3M40d]

Originally Posted by kgroschi

I fly Citation Mustangs and Phenom 300s. I can also fly A320s/A330s/A340s but don't have the necessary rating. I've been testing cars for over 10 years (my dad for about 35 years btw) and I produce car reviews. It's not rocket science and I am doing better actually. I also have a small business believe it or not.
You're just another hater who claims to point out "factual errors" because you drove a Tesla a day or maybe a week... I've been in your shoes a long, long time ago.
But it's fine. I don't need to convince anyone.

Wow you really are a very special person.

[ADS-UK]

Originally Posted by SR22pilot

My plane has a fairly advance autopilot for general aviation. It follows a course and can do vertical navigation (programmed altitude changes). It can't avoid other aircraft or adjust speed. The current automotive systems (Tesla, BMW, others) don't follow a complete GPS course but they speed up and slow down and have some traffic avoidance capabilities. They follow the road much like older, more limited aviation autopilots that followed VOR airways. I guess I see no problem with the name. Then again, I understand what the word autopilot means and what it doesn't.

Isn't it ironic that only the pilots have so far claimed that the term isn't misleading to the general public

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by SR22pilot

My plane has a fairly advance autopilot for general aviation. It follows a course and can do vertical navigation (programmed altitude changes). It can't avoid other aircraft or adjust speed. The current automotive systems (Tesla, BMW, others) don't follow a complete GPS course but they speed up and slow down and have some traffic avoidance capabilities. They follow the road much like older, more limited aviation autopilots that followed VOR airways. I guess I see no problem with the name. Then again, I understand what the word autopilot means and what it doesn't.

What kind of aircraft do you currently fly?

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

Isn't it ironic that only the pilots have so far claimed that the term isn't misleading to the general public

Since the term comes from aviation, isn't it interesting how non-pilots haven't a clue what a real autopilot does. Does the term really confuse you? I have found a lot of people who are upset at the term fully understand what Autopilot on a Tesla is and isn't. Somehow they seem to feel they understand better than others what people other than themselves think.

In the end there is a manual and it is fairly clear. Some of the things people complain about with Autopilot are issues with other systems. Just because it is named Driver Assist, I don't see people understanding the limitations if they haven't read the manual. I got into a discussion with an Infiniti owner who said his car had no problem automatically stopping for other stopped cars. I then went to the manual for his car and showed him where it warned that, when on adaptive cruise control, the system might not recognize a stopped car uncovered by a moving car changing lanes. My point is that naming it adaptive cruise control did nothing to make the driver realize there is a major limitation with the system.

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

What kind of aircraft do you currently fly?

2006 SR22 with Avidyne R9 including DFC100 AP.

[teaston]

The term Autopilot is definitely very confusing! I have to admit that up to only about a year ago I thought Tesla’s were capable of completely driving by themselves without any driver intervention, and I am very into cars, I read lots of car magazines and watch a lot of car programs! Considering that, I can imagine a very large percentage of people will assume the same when they first hear about Tesla’s “Autopilot”, and many of them will continue to think that for a long time.

[ADS-UK]

Originally Posted by SR22pilot

Since the term comes from aviation, isn't it interesting how non-pilots haven't a clue what a real autopilot does. Does the term really confuse you? I have found a lot of people who are upset at the term fully understand what Autopilot on a Tesla is and isn't. Somehow they seem to feel they understand better than others what people other than themselves think.

In the end there is a manual and it is fairly clear. Some of the things people complain about with Autopilot are issues with other systems. Just because it is named Driver Assist, I don't see people understanding the limitations if they haven't read the manual. I got into a discussion with an Infiniti owner who said his car had no problem automatically stopping for other stopped cars. I then went to the manual for his car and showed him where it warned that, when on adaptive cruise control, the system might not recognize a stopped car uncovered by a moving car changing lanes. My point is that naming it adaptive cruise control did nothing to make the driver realize there is a major limitation with the system.

You seem to have a superiority complex and assume that some of us who challenge marketing spin as being unable to comprehend. Keep reinforcing my point.

[SR22pilot]

Originally Posted by ADS-UK

You seem to have a superiority complex and assume that some of us who challenge marketing spin as being unable to comprehend. Keep reinforcing my point.

Quite the opposite. I have the feeling that you fully understand what an autopilot does and doesn't do but that you feel that while you understand it that others aren't as smart as you. Perhaps you are correct. However, I don't presume to speak for others. I'm just a former engineer and a pilot speaking to what the term truly means.

As an aside, has anyone thought that it made more sense for BMW to use the term autopilot given their history?

[MarkyM]

I must admit in all my years (I'm not a pilot, I'm a passenger) I've always assumed autopilot in airplanes, was only used for cruising at a set course once all the difficult stuff was done, that maybe too simplistic though?

I've got a X3 with the optional assistance system and it is great but I know it is an assistance system and not a autonomous driving mode, I only tend to use it in traffic or restricted speed areas on motorways but you've got to be alert to a vehicle in front emergency braking in slow traffic, there are always limitations I'm sure but it makes stop/go easier

I can't comment on the optional Tesla system but I am pretty sure it is also great if not better but they didn't have anything I could see comparable to size/price of X3 M40i when I ordered mine so wasn't a brand I considered but respect them for what they have done in a short space of time if only for driving other manufacturers to sit up and take notice and start seriously developing EV vehicles

What I do have a problem with is when sometimes they are called semi-autonomous modes, that to me is meaningless and misleading, it's either autonomous or not, can't be half and half surely: