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      09-16-2020, 11:00 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by R0ut3r View Post
Yes, 5-10K will do it for sure. The goal was to reduce the spend on my second vehicle. My summer car is a 2020 (992) C4S Cab.

The dealer was kind enough to do essentially a "key swap" from the M5 to the X4M (no balloon) so long as I took the one with the strange seats (orange inserts) that I guess they were stuck with.

I'll tough it out for the winter but will probably be looking for a used Cayenne Turbo (2019) or X6M (2020... which will be harder to find I guess). The good news is those SUVs depreciate like a planet killer asteroid crashing through our atmosphere.

In the meantime... I will tune this x4m, code it, etc and work tirelessly at making it fun

I know, I'm weird and make impulsive decisions I regret all the time ! (Except my 2012 e92 M3 DCT with X pipes and my 2016 Ferrari California T... I loved those every second I had them).
Fortunately, the automotive industry gives us many choices. Different engine characteristics appeal to different people. The lack of low end torque and the extremely non-linear power delivery in the X3M/X4M was the main reason I did not buy it after more than two decades of being a BMW M devotee (including road cars and race cars). Those traits ran counter to how I use and enjoy the car in daily driving. The "always drive it above 4,000 rpm" is simply not a palatable approach for me. One of the main reasons I chose the Jaguar F-Pace SVR was the instantaneous power at all rpms, and a very linear power delivery. (And the sound, which continues to be intoxicating after a year of ownership.). The GLC63 offers similar power characteristics.
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      09-16-2020, 11:40 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ut3r View Post
I think this summarizes my issue best. 5-60 is driving me bonkers. I used to have an f86 x6m with jb4 and it was so much more forgiving for not being in the exact right gear at the right time. I think BMW needs to add a small electric engine to compensate.

Anyone know if default D2 can be coded in? I have BimmerCode.

This is going to be a very long 36 months....
Actually, I enjoy the X3M far more than the F85 X5M I had. You are right the 4.4 v8 had better torque and less lag down low but the top end sucked. You are constantly mis shifting in manual mode because the engine died up top, look at dyno graphs and you can see the flattening then dip out starts 700 rpms or so below redline.

Here is a list of what the x3m does better imo:

1. steering feel is much improved

2. engine top end is amazing

3. handling is less numb and has more play, far less understeer at 7/10's- you can feel the torque vectoring working as well as the rear biased awd. much much more fun.

4. it is much lighter and tossable

Before you feel disappointed, I think there's plenty of stuff to like and enjoy. You may need to row the gears more to keep the engine out of the laggy part of the rpm.
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      09-16-2020, 11:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Yeah but there's way too many variables at play here as the X3M is much heavier, has to power 4 wheels, and far less aerodynamic so taking launch out of the equation it's got other factors at play holding it back compared to the F80.
Here's the delta vs the competition:

GLC63S
0-60 3.4
5-60 4.6
delta 1.2 seconds

STELVIO QUAD
0-60 3.3
5-60 4.3
delta 1 second

They are better (GLC is actually close), so it is the tuning of the car bmw chose to go with.
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      09-18-2020, 03:22 PM   #26
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I came from a tuned B58 M240i and it had tons of low and mid range torque, was really quick. I don't find myself missing that low end though, maybe I'm in the minority but love how the power band of the S58 is, top end is brutal. Everyone these days is so used to instant down low torque with tiny turbos every car has now. Hate how most cars with the massive low end shove die off up top. I'd rather have to work for it...creates a more involving driving and motorsport experience.

People just need to re-adjust their driving perspective and style when driving the S58. Once you stop complaining about the lack of low end, and just understand how the power band works...I find zero complaints about it, and the car is simply brutally fast.
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      09-18-2020, 03:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ThumperMCS View Post
I'd rather have to work for it...creates a more involving driving and motorsport experience.
Exactly this.
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      09-18-2020, 04:00 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Here's the delta vs the competition:

GLC63S
0-60 3.4
5-60 4.6
delta 1.2 seconds

STELVIO QUAD
0-60 3.3
5-60 4.3
delta 1 second

They are better (GLC is actually close), so it is the tuning of the car bmw chose to go with.
you could add SVR to this, its one of the best
0-60 4.1
5-60 4.4
delta 0.3 seconds

the new Velar SV Auto is also pretty damn good for a 4770 lb truck, strange its the same engine but weighs more than SVR and its quicker... both C&D results
0-60 3.8
5-60 4.2
actually only cost about $10,000 more and is much nicer quality with a V8
sure the 0-60 doesnt look amazing and 1/4 mile is 12.20 vs 11.60 BUT at a stop light it looks like it will take out the X3M... oh yeah X3M destroys the F Pace and Velar in the skid, 0.97 vs 0.85 and breaking 146 ft vs 165 and 174. Hell the X3M broke quicker than the new CORVETTE Z51, now thats SAD, 3638lb corvette took 154 ft, 4550 lb X3M took 146
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      09-18-2020, 05:00 PM   #29
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I looked up the M40i and X3MC torque curves a while back. The X3MC almost matches the M40i at 2,000 rpm. Either the X3MC has higher gearing than M40i or the X3MC feels slow at low revs because at high revs it’s so much quicker. Which is it?
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      09-18-2020, 05:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperMCS View Post
I came from a tuned B58 M240i and it had tons of low and mid range torque, was really quick. I don't find myself missing that low end though, maybe I'm in the minority but love how the power band of the S58 is, top end is brutal. Everyone these days is so used to instant down low torque with tiny turbos every car has now. Hate how most cars with the massive low end shove die off up top. I'd rather have to work for it...creates a more involving driving and motorsport experience.

People just need to re-adjust their driving perspective and style when driving the S58. Once you stop complaining about the lack of low end, and just understand how the power band works...I find zero complaints about it, and the car is simply brutally fast.
I don't disagree, but the low torque isn't really the issue- it's really because it is non linear. You have a surge that makes lower speed driving more difficult- at higher speeds you can downshift plenty to get to the right rpm. Maybe I've been spoiled, but OP and I have 911's and Porsche does turbo sixes in a much more linear/enjoyable way.

I still find plenty to enjoy in the X3M, it is not perfect, but I am pretty happy about the top end of the engine. It definitely reminds me more of a muscle car than a precise sports car. Fun is definitely on the menu with this little suv.
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      09-18-2020, 05:21 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
I looked up the M40i and X3MC torque curves a while back. The X3MC almost matches the M40i at 2,000 rpm. Either the X3MC has higher gearing than M40i or the X3MC feels slow at low revs because at high revs itÂ’s so much quicker. Which is it?
Max torque is at 2600-5950rpm 442lb/ft much higher than the 40i @ 369 over a smaller rev range, however below say 2000rpm there isn't really anything there with the S58 if you look at the graph it's almost vertical from 0-2000 to build up between that range.

Gear for gear beyond 2600rpm the X3MC walks the M40i, held in 6th at low speed you pull a few yards before the inevitable, if we did a side by side roll at 40mph in 2nd where would your money be? or in 3rd at 60? or 4th @ 80 etc.......The X3M produces more power from 2600rpm it's not just at low revs.. My 740d could keep up with an M40i the X3M is in another league.
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      09-18-2020, 08:25 PM   #32
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It gets better but truly need some tuning to open it up. Alpina seems to have addressed this with their B3 using the same S58 motor. I think a lot is based on how BMW tunes the engine it seems better fitted for M3/M4 and not X3M/X4M. My 2 cents

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      09-19-2020, 04:34 PM   #33
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I wish a mild hybrid had been an option, to cover the torque down low, and then let the s58 do it's thing up high. Seems like Benz is doing some fun stuff in that direction.
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      09-19-2020, 05:15 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by itsmabs View Post
I wish a mild hybrid had been an option, to cover the torque down low, and then let the s58 do it's thing up high. Seems like Benz is doing some fun stuff in that direction.
It would add unnecessary weight. I wish this car was 200 pounds lighter.
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      09-19-2020, 05:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmabs View Post
I wish a mild hybrid had been an option, to cover the torque down low, and then let the s58 do it's thing up high. Seems like Benz is doing some fun stuff in that direction.
It would add unnecessary weight. I wish this car was 200 pounds lighter.
The Audi hybrid system is 22lbs. I would prefer that to the heavy wheels. I do agree the transmission keeping it revd up hides it, but I'd prefer being able to avoid the dead pedal under 3k.
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      09-20-2020, 04:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R0ut3r View Post
Hi guys

I just swapped my F90 M5 for an X4M (I'm downsizing my payments).

Driving it home today I notice if has very little torque from a standstill. It only picks up around 3000 rpm. Is this normal?

I previously had test driven an x3m demo and it didn't seem so bad. I hadn't driven more than 3-5 minutes... maybe I missed such a big gap in torque but that seems unlikely.

Could this be related to break-in period limiting torque?

I bought a bootmod3 license as a last resort to hopefully remedy this but hoping you guys will tell me I just need to wait it out (it currently has 50KM).
I just went the opposite way and love my new found torque. I feel your pain. I did not get on the the X3MC
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      09-20-2020, 05:47 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
when driving on the highway? what are you talking about?

If you are cruising on the highway lets say in 7th or 8th gear @ 2000 RPMS and you just want to apply throttle to pass or accelerate without downshifting, there is nothing there since the power does not come on until over 3000 rpms which causes you to have to downshift.

If you compare other Turbo BMWs TQ and the power band comes on much sooner. For instance an F8X. In 7th gear, you can accelerate easily in 7th @ 2000 rpms while cruising on the highway without downshifting. On the S58, due to its design, there is nothing below 3000 rpms and a tune will not change that.
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      09-20-2020, 06:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YasM3 View Post
If you are cruising on the highway lets say in 7th or 8th gear @ 2000 RPMS and you just want to apply throttle to pass or accelerate without downshifting, there is nothing there since the power does not come on until over 3000 rpms which causes you to have to downshift.

If you compare other Turbo BMWs TQ and the power band comes on much sooner. For instance an F8X. In 7th gear, you can accelerate easily in 7th @ 2000 rpms while cruising on the highway without downshifting. On the S58, due to its design, there is nothing below 3000 rpms and a tune will not change that.
When you apply the throttle in rolling, car downshifts in milliseconds and the rpms jump up. There is zero hesitation whatsoever. The only time you will experience lag is when you go full throttle from complete stop, e.g. at the traffic light.
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      09-20-2020, 07:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
When you apply the throttle in rolling, car downshifts in milliseconds and the rpms jump up. There is zero hesitation whatsoever. The only time you will experience lag is when you go full throttle from complete stop, e.g. at the traffic light.
Yeah but it still feels slow in that scenario. That's just the plain bottom line.
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      09-20-2020, 07:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Young04 View Post
Yeah but it still feels slow in that scenario. That's just the plain bottom line.
This car doesn’t feel slow in rolling by any means. That’s my bottom line.
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      09-20-2020, 07:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Young04 View Post
Yeah but it still feels slow in that scenario. That's just the plain bottom line.
This car doesn’t feel slow in rolling by any means. That’s my bottom line.
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      09-20-2020, 07:50 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YasM3 View Post
If you are cruising on the highway lets say in 7th or 8th gear @ 2000 RPMS and you just want to apply throttle to pass or accelerate without downshifting, there is nothing there since the power does not come on until over 3000 rpms which causes you to have to downshift.

If you compare other Turbo BMWs TQ and the power band comes on much sooner. For instance an F8X. In 7th gear, you can accelerate easily in 7th @ 2000 rpms while cruising on the highway without downshifting. On the S58, due to its design, there is nothing below 3000 rpms and a tune will not change that.
Trying to understand. You are comparing hp/torque to a f8x sedan vs the X3M.


F8X comp is a 3,6xx lb sedan, with 444 hp.
F97 comp is a 4,5xx lb suv, with 503 hp.

About 900 lbs of additional weight is being pulled by less than 60 hp.

You're not going to get what you want in any performance SUV, to be honest.
RWD > AWD at any highway speeds, and sedan > suv at highway speeds.

If you compare the 0-100 mph values of sports sedans vs a comparable performance suv, you're going to see that AWD and aerodynamics start to make a difference. This is at WOT, much less at lower RPM's- it is just not feasible or possible to expect throttle response to be close. It is a testimony to BMW engineering that the F97 is 8 seconds to 100, compared to many of its competitors, that is excellent.

Besides, why would you not get every chance to let the engine sing up high? That is the most enjoyable part of the experience imo. Perhaps a Tesla, with just one gear is best for your needs, instant torque, but nothing above the initial punch.
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      09-20-2020, 07:55 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by dkhm3 View Post
Trying to understand. You are comparing hp/torque to a f8x sedan vs the X3M.


F8X comp is a 3,6xx lb sedan, with 444 hp.
F97 comp is a 4,5xx lb suv, with 503 hp.

About 900 lbs of additional weight is being pulled by less than 60 hp.

You're not going to get what you want in any performance SUV, to be honest.
RWD > AWD at any highway speeds, and sedan > suv at highway speeds.

If you compare the 0-100 mph values of sports sedans vs a comparable performance suv, you're going to see that AWD and aerodynamics start to make a difference. This is at WOT, much less at lower RPM's- it is just not feasible or possible to expect throttle response to be close. It is a testimony to BMW engineering that the F97 is 8 seconds to 100, compared to many of its competitors, that is excellent.

Besides, why would you not get every chance to let the engine sing up high? That is the most enjoyable part of the experience imo. Perhaps a Tesla, with just one gear is best for your needs, instant torque, but nothing above the initial punch.
I agree with your conclusions.
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      09-20-2020, 08:17 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post
This car doesn’t feel slow in rolling by any means. That’s my bottom line.
In part throttle situations the 355hp x3 m40i feels quicker. That's my complaint. If you disagree with that I don't think you're being objective.
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