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      03-17-2022, 10:10 AM   #1
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Fuel system issues on tuned 2020 X3M

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So I've posted here previously about some ongoing issues I've had with my X3M and looking for some additional input. Quick background:
Last year after break-in service I started tuning work with MG Flasher flash platform and a custom E50 tune from Wedge (I've worked with Steven for several years on other BMWs). A few months later started having some HPFP error codes at idle. Fast forward through months of troubleshooting. I replaced both HPFPs which resolved the idle fuel pressure codes. However, I was having some long crank starts when the car was warm (not hot, not cold - only warm). After further troubleshooting we determined that injector 4 had a tiny leak which was losing pressure and causing the long crank starts. Replaced and resolved.

However -
I am still finding that even at the moderate boost levels we're running, I'm having fuel rail drops during logs and when doing a hard kick-down acceleration during street driving, I get stutter/misfires, sometimes bad enough to throw a drivetrain error, misfire codes, charging pressure shutoff, etc.

I'm trying to determine whether the fueling system isn't as capable as you'd expect for having twin TU pumps and just isn't able to provide enough fuel or whether there is yet another component issue, perhaps upstream at the lpfp or something like that. The issue seems worse when it's cold out. At 50° F I wasn't able to recreate the stutter/misfire issue.

I haven't dyno'd but expect that I'm in the low to mid 600's at the wheels. Best Dragy times are 3 second 0-60 and 10.93 1/4... So nowhere near what some of the really fast guys are running.

Has anyone else experienced similar issues when running an ethanol blend? I did see one YouTuber mention something similar but other than that, haven't heard of other issues like this. I need to decide whether to:
-Search harder for other fueling components that aren't operating correctly
-Add more fueling through a PI kit
-Sell it
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      03-17-2022, 11:02 AM   #2
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Have you tried gapping down the plugs? I want to say a few companies recommend it when running over E30. That could certainly lead to the breakup issues though I don't think it would cause rail pressure drops.

Have you tried flashing to a stock or 93 tune to log and see if the issue persists? Maybe it's the file itself that is causing the issues.

I've never heard of or used Wedge Performance but I know first hand what it's like chasing fuel cuts and break ups endlessly with ethanol mixes on my previous Audi. Especially in colder temps which require the fuel system to work even harder.

One thing that worked for me was starting fresh from square one. Log the car with only pump gas and see if it's a mechanical issue or if everything is fine. Then work your way back up. It's not fun but trust me I know exactly what you are going through and the frustration. At the end of the day maybe it's worth considering a different tuner if it doesn't get resolved
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      03-17-2022, 11:42 AM   #3
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Plug gap could be something to try, good suggestion. On the B58 there was some... Healthy debate over that 😂.
When troubleshooting the previous issues, definitely flashed back to stock/pump gas and confirmed the issues weren't tune related. I've done some kick down acceleration runs and logs on 93 and didn't see the same issues. I suspect that if there is an issue, it's small enough that it runs fine on 93. It also runs fine on E50 for most driving conditions, only causes an issue at very specific, very high demand WOT conditions.

I've considered switching to Ecutek and putting a flex fuel sensor in place and start over with a brand new baseman. See if anything changes. Pretty big $ commitment to do that, tho.

Next step this week is adjusting to an E40 blend and see if the issue persists. Thanks for the input.
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      03-17-2022, 11:55 AM   #4
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Ironically enough I had the same kickdown issue on my B9 S4. To the point where anytime I got on it hard I wouldn't use kickdown because I knew it would backfire and cause problems haha. I thought I was putting that in the past by moving to the S58 but now you're making me nervous lol.

There is definitely a price to pay and changing tuners sucks because that money cant be recouped like switching wheels. I need to dig around a little more before pulling the trigger but I appreciate this being put on the radar.

Report back with any success please!
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      03-17-2022, 09:47 PM   #5
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If I'm not mistaken Mission has also done FULL E tunes on stock hardware and ram just fine. So I don't personally think the problem is the amount of fueling. Although I don't really know anything.
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      03-17-2022, 09:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrockDM View Post
I thought I was putting that in the past by moving to the S58 but now you're making me nervous lol.
Tell me about it. I had a heavily modified 340i before this and thought I was "upgrading" to the S58 but honestly it's been nothing but a headache. That B58 took everything I threw at it in stride and was a very fast car. This is a boss ride and I love the vehicle but my experience has been that it doesn't like being tuned. I think I'm in the minority here tho.
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      03-17-2022, 09:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freshxdough View Post
If I'm not mistaken Mission has also done FULL E tunes on stock hardware and ram just fine. So I don't personally think the problem is the amount of fueling. Although I don't really know anything.
That's my take as well.
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      03-17-2022, 10:00 PM   #8
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Sub’d to this thread… OP I really hope you find a resolution. I’m having ummmm… issues too. I just switched from an OTS E30 tune that was stout to a custom E50 map.

First flash car ran strong. Sent logs to the tuner and he said throttle was closing at big end of pull, so he sent me a rev… went to a drag race event and the car ran like total dog shit! Went into full limp mode on my second pass and I aborted the day so I could “drive” the car home.

I’ll be loading rev 3 this weekend trying to log some decent pulls again. So far, each time I stab the throttle it goes into a drivetrain malfunction and I have to turn the car off for 10-15 seconds and restart. Totally and completely SUCKS!!!

I do not blame my tuner, he’s totally communicating with me and studying my logs, but these issues are hit or miss with this platform. The ugliness of tuning new platforms no one speaks about.
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      03-18-2022, 12:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10SecGG View Post
Sub’d to this thread… OP I really hope you find a resolution. I’m having ummmm… issues too. I just switched from an OTS E30 tune that was stout to a custom E50 map.

First flash car ran strong. Sent logs to the tuner and he said throttle was closing at big end of pull, so he sent me a rev… went to a drag race event and the car ran like total dog shit! Went into full limp mode on my second pass and I aborted the day so I could “drive” the car home.

I’ll be loading rev 3 this weekend trying to log some decent pulls again. So far, each time I stab the throttle it goes into a drivetrain malfunction and I have to turn the car off for 10-15 seconds and restart. Totally and completely SUCKS!!!

I do not blame my tuner, he’s totally communicating with me and studying my logs, but these issues are hit or miss with this platform. The ugliness of tuning new platforms no one speaks about.
Which custom tuner did you go with?
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      03-18-2022, 04:41 AM   #10
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Have you tested your E85? What ethanol percentage is it at? I am assuming you are not using full race E85 at $10 a gallon?
Some pump E85 will run "harder" I don't know the term in cold temperatures.
I did experience issues in under 45 degrees with certain fuels and certain types ran better.
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      03-18-2022, 08:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suby01 View Post
Have you tested your E85? What ethanol percentage is it at? I am assuming you are not using full race E85 at $10 a gallon?
Some pump E85 will run "harder" I don't know the term in cold temperatures.
I did experience issues in under 45 degrees with certain fuels and certain types ran better.
Yep. E85 is not ideal in cold climates for various reasons. I'm no expert but this is just what I've gathered over the years...

- As ambient temps get colder, the turbos run more efficiently and in return can make more boost with less effort. On a hot summer day you are less likely to meet target boost than on a cool day. Hence the term "boost weather".
- Well in order to make more boost you need more fuel. In doing so the fuel system has to work harder to meet the demand.
- Ethanol in general runs the fuel system pretty hard so when you add the cold into the mix the system is working even harder.
- Now on top of that, winter blends of e85 tend to drop in quality so you're making all this boost and timing but the fuel and overall octane is worse...

It's quite the perfect storm that is a major headache for tuners to find the right balance for. If possible, it's best to just run 93 in the winter and save yourself the headaches...
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      03-18-2022, 09:12 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMiller View Post
Which custom tuner did you go with?
Jeff Payn. He’s got some of the quickest Supras on the road right now, and he also owns an X3MC as well. I fully trust him, just ironing out a few nuances right now.
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      03-20-2022, 08:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10SecGG View Post
Jeff Payn. He’s got some of the quickest Supras on the road right now, and he also owns an X3MC as well. I fully trust him, just ironing out a few nuances right now.
Cool, never heard of him but will check him out. Did he mention why he recommends stock dps with these aggressive tunes, meaning we're adding 150+HP?
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      03-20-2022, 11:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryMiller View Post
Cool, never heard of him but will check him out. Did he mention why he recommends stock dps with these aggressive tunes, meaning we're adding 150+HP?
Do check him out... I loaded my .3 rev today, and so far, it's bad ass! Could be the weather, could be he found the issue... dunno??!?!?! But, it's a stout tune thus far! I'm cautiously optimistic and will continue to log data until my event the first weekend of April.

I hope he found my problem, but as you and I both know, it is a slippery slope in the world of tuning a new platform! As an aside... I've been consistently using a formula of E-77 as a standard for my E content mix based on what most of my friends say about our fill station.. Today, I was filling up to test my rev#3 and a guy, who luckily enough had a test kit said the E was a full E85!!!

Soooooo I adjusted my fill, and did a few test hits, and OMG!!! Car pulls like a freight train, and best of all... No fault codes! Could be a combo of tuner homing in on the perfect tune, and warmer weather like the above poster suggested. I don't know, but I'm as happy as a clam today. Will update and this tune progresses, but so far it's very good.

One point for the poster who asked about why my tuner doesn't recommend downpipes? Quite simply, these motors don't benefit from downpipes until you get serious with a tune. To be blunt, you don't need to gap plugs, waste money on filter's downpipes, or anything snake oil related until you surpass an E50ish tune. Take to for what it's worth... I've already ran 158mph in the 1/2 mile and 10.65@131mph with nothing more than a simple tune.
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      03-23-2022, 12:47 PM   #15
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100% true, While there is a improvement with DP and intake it is marginal at best. bone stock vs DP Intake on kill tune would probably only differ a small amount of power.
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      03-23-2022, 12:49 PM   #16
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also e85 is a slippery slope when using pump. I ran it for years in my n54 and every few months had some hicups that a fresh tank of gas corrected.
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      03-24-2022, 11:31 AM   #17
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Update:
Adjusted fuel to E40 and wasn't able recreate the misfire, even at 34° temp. However, 4th gear logs still show rail pressure crash at low RPM. I've sent the logs to my tuner and they're here if you're interested:
https://datazap.me/u/tnilson/s58-e40...s?log=0&data=9

Next steps: I've ordered a Motiv Reflex fuel controller kit with lpfp sensor and going to log lpfp data to see if that's the culprit. More soon...
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      03-26-2022, 01:46 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10SecGG View Post
Do check him out... I loaded my .3 rev today, and so far, it's bad ass! Could be the weather, could be he found the issue... dunno??!?!?! But, it's a stout tune thus far! I'm cautiously optimistic and will continue to log data until my event the first weekend of April.

I hope he found my problem, but as you and I both know, it is a slippery slope in the world of tuning a new platform! As an aside... I've been consistently using a formula of E-77 as a standard for my E content mix based on what most of my friends say about our fill station.. Today, I was filling up to test my rev#3 and a guy, who luckily enough had a test kit said the E was a full E85!!!

Soooooo I adjusted my fill, and did a few test hits, and OMG!!! Car pulls like a freight train, and best of all... No fault codes! Could be a combo of tuner homing in on the perfect tune, and warmer weather like the above poster suggested. I don't know, but I'm as happy as a clam today. Will update and this tune progresses, but so far it's very good.

One point for the poster who asked about why my tuner doesn't recommend downpipes? Quite simply, these motors don't benefit from downpipes until you get serious with a tune. To be blunt, you don't need to gap plugs, waste money on filter's downpipes, or anything snake oil related until you surpass an E50ish tune. Take to for what it's worth... I've already ran 158mph in the 1/2 mile and 10.65@131mph with nothing more than a simple tune.
That's a great explanation. I've heard from tuners that the plugs on the s58 are the best ever and come with an agressive gap from factory. I think we got lucky with this engine bc there's not a lot of room for bolt on improvement, super marginal, def not worth the money. No one had an intake upgrade, I mean the drop in filters are a plus but not worth $300, I have eventuri, until RK tunes came out with one like last month, and others on this forum who take the airbox out, but there's no performacne gain, just noise.
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