[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Oh, and I have a Tesla on order.

Accept my sympathy, they are crap.

[2kaccordocoupe]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

No V6 puts out anyway near an M5 V8's power, mine would eat any X3M at any rev range.

LOL buddy is yammering on about a V6 when the S58 is an inline 6 so not sure what the point was…

I agree. I had an F90 M5 prior to the X4MC and you can't even compare the power. Not even in the same league.

[YolkyPalky]

Originally Posted by harperium

Coming home late last night on the highway, I completed a passing maneuver and got back in the right lane. Sports+ / D2……D2 likes to hold 7th……I prefer D2 on the highway…….D2 or D3 gives you…..

Who the heck buys an M car to drive around in D mode? LOL!

[BadGTR]

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

No V6 puts out anyway near an M5 V8's power, mine would eat any X3M at any rev range.

Thanks Captain Obvious. Well, I failed to mention mine is tuned on e50. Thus exceeding the stock m5 power levels. A more apples to apples comparison would of been a x3m vs x5m. Even, if both are tuned the x3m will eat up the x5m.

[spucktacular]

I respect your desire to go from a perfect daily driver (X3 M40i is a great car) to a hooligan with a hesitant low end, stiff ride even in comfort, and the consumption off a square brick.

I own a S58 X4M, coming from F26 X4 35i (306hp, single turbo with a twin scroll, wimpy soccer mom power unit)... and was really taken back by the laggy low end the first time i test drove a S58 F98.

F97/F98 Ms are not about the power (of which there are ridiculous amounts of, once you stretch her legs PROPERLY with some hair on your chest), its about control, endurance and refinement... this guy, coming from a M40i, gets it.. for most, don't even bother.. just get the M40i cause you'll never know the difference... and the m40i will be comfier around town. But for those that know, they tip their hats off and pay respect to that level of perfection.

If we could only get 6 piston carbon ceramic brakes on these things, i would have no compliant left.

Originally Posted by Mike02z

Having had a 22 X3 M40i I can attest to the fact that the B58 felt like it had more torque at lower RPM. I know driving up hills in the M40i I could do that in 8th where with the X3 MC the same hill will drop the trans into 7th. That said, I honestly don’t care because the S58 puts a bigger smile on my face than the B58 did when I punch it. Just my opinion.

[Kevin_The_Clean1]

Originally Posted by spucktacular

I respect your desire to go from a perfect daily driver (X3 M40i is a great car) to a hooligan with a hesitant low end, stiff ride even in comfort, and the consumption off a square brick.

I own a S58 X4M, coming from F26 X4 35i (306hp, single turbo with a twin scroll, wimpy soccer mom power unit)... and was really taken back by the laggy low end the first time i test drove a S58 F98.

F97/F98 Ms are not about the power (of which there are ridiculous amounts of, once you stretch her legs PROPERLY with some hair on your chest), its about control, endurance and refinement... this guy, coming from a M40i, gets it.. for most, don't even bother.. just get the M40i cause you'll never know the difference... and the m40i will be comfier around town. But for those that know, they tip their hats off and pay respect to that level of perfection.

If we could only get 6 piston carbon ceramic brakes on these things, i would have no compliant left.

It's in the upper RPM's that the S58 truly sings. And all those that are complaining about a lack of low end torque seem to stop the banter when it comes to the LCI cars. We suspect it's simply a tuning parameter & only time will tell what the deal there is. We suspect that a LCI tuning update / revision will help solve the issue being discussed here as the G80 M3 owners are not mentioning this same topic & yet have an identical engine / motor.

And for the 6-piston breaks up front, the current gen X5 M 6-piston beauties are a quick plug & play way to make that happen. You simply need 4 bolts & new pads to do this.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by Kevin_The_Clean1

It's in the upper RPM's that the S58 truly sings. And all those that are complaining about a lack of low end torque seem to stop the banter when it comes to the LCI cars. We suspect it's simply a tuning parameter & only time will tell what the deal there is. We suspect that a LCI tuning update / revision will help solve the issue being discussed here as the G80 M3 owners are not mentioning this same topic & yet have an identical engine / motor.

And for the 6-piston breaks up front, the current gen X5 M 6-piston beauties are a quick plug & play way to make that happen. You simply need 4 bolts & new pads to do this.

This review says it's still there,{lack of bottom end torque}sorry.
Putting me off a bit.
Need a test drive.

[Bestle]

It's a characteristic of the engine, the M3/M4 guys share the same complaint. Unfortunately though, the X3/X4 have a ton more weight to shift so it's even more noticeable.

[spdandpwr]

Originally Posted by Bestle

It's a characteristic of the engine, the M3/M4 guys share the same complaint. Unfortunately though, the X3/X4 have a ton more weight to shift so it's even more noticeable.

AWD vs AWD, it's only 10% more weight (or 400 lbs) -- about the size of two passengers.

Regardless, drive in transmission setting two and keep it in D and you'll never have issues with torque. MPG difference is nominal because you don't need to toe in as much throttle

[95wildtt]

The S58 is an AMAZING ENGINE, but you need to understand it, and what it was designed to do.

Basic turbo engines 101.

We have a 3.0L Six, just as is the B58, and a 3.0L six can only push so much air around...
We don't have the 4.4L Eight that the bigger brothers do, so we don't get the extra 1.4L (50% more) of displacement for low end grunt (and sound).

That said, the personality of the engine is all about the turbo(s) mated to the engine and the tune for the wastegates.

Small turbos spool up faster (B58) so we feel more torque at lower RPMs, but lose HP at higher RPMs as the boost maxes out, so they lose top-end.

Larger turbos take longer to spool (S58) but have more HP at higher RPMs before the boost maxes out, so more top end but less low-end torque while the turbos spool.

There is tuning (BM3 etc.) that can be done to hold the boost (keep wastegates closed) and add fuel for longer at the high-end for more HP, but we can't tune to make a turbo smaller and spool quicker.
That's limited by displacement and really can't be altered, at least on our XxMs.

So we have to chose one or the other, low-end torque or high end HP.
We'd like to have both, but the only real compromise is to keep the turbos spooled (keep higher RPMs) with our platform.

Just a side note that the current F1 cars get 850+ HP out a 1.4L V6.
Indy Cars get about 750HP out of a 2.2L V6.
Neither have low end torque, they can't change the laws of physics either no matter how much money they throw at it, so hence the hybrid assist on F1 today (electric motor spools the turbo) and coming for IndyCar (electric motor to add power to drive train) to give low-end torque.

So for racing, RPMs and HP are key... hence I suspect the decision made by BMW for a mainly track intended platform (ours) which is really designed to support the G8x

[harperium]

Originally Posted by YolkyPalky

Who the heck buys an M car to drive around in D mode? LOL!

Lots of roads aren't back-country roads, bruh. There's a time and a place.

I'm the OP, and the point I was making is that the lack of low-end torque is surprising and can catch you out when you aren't expecting. I probably should have chosen a different title for the thread, as my post was taken more negatively than I meant, but whatever.

On the flip side, last week I was hooning it in manual mode on a true back country road in Minnesota. Proper hills and curves. The X3M is simply amazing. So much fun to pull to red line, and it's really quite impressive how it hugs the road when cornering, and I could have pushed it a lot harder than I was. And I had luggage in the back! The stopping power is also immense.

Those who say the M40i is 90% of the X3M are just wrong. The M40i is maybe "2/3rd" of a real M. You can certainly have fun in the M40i, but the top-end thrill isn't anywhere near the real M.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by BadGTR

Thanks Captain Obvious. Well, I failed to mention mine is tuned on e50.

Well you hero.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by 95wildtt

The S58 is an AMAZING ENGINE, but you need to understand it, and what it was designed to do.

Basic turbo engines 101.

We have a 3.0L Six, just as is the B58, and a 3.0L six can only push so much air around...
We don't have the 4.4L Eight that the bigger brothers do, so we don't get the extra 1.4L (50% more) of displacement for low end grunt (and sound).

That said, the personality of the engine is all about the turbo(s) mated to the engine and the tune for the wastegates.

Small turbos spool up faster (B58) so we feel more torque at lower RPMs, but lose HP at higher RPMs as the boost maxes out, so they lose top-end.

Larger turbos take longer to spool (S58) but have more HP at higher RPMs before the boost maxes out, so more top end but less low-end torque while the turbos spool.

There is tuning (BM3 etc.) that can be done to hold the boost (keep wastegates closed) and add fuel for longer at the high-end for more HP, but we can't tune to make a turbo smaller and spool quicker.
That's limited by displacement and really can't be altered, at least on our XxMs.

So we have to chose one or the other, low-end torque or high end HP.
We'd like to have both, but the only real compromise is to keep the turbos spooled (keep higher RPMs) with our platform.

Just a side note that the current F1 cars get 850+ HP out a 1.4L V6.
Indy Cars get about 750HP out of a 2.2L V6.
Neither have low end torque, they can't change the laws of physics either no matter how much money they throw at it, so hence the hybrid assist on F1 today (electric motor spools the turbo) and coming for IndyCar (electric motor to add power to drive train) to give low-end torque.

So for racing, RPMs and HP are key... hence I suspect the decision made by BMW for a mainly track intended platform (ours) which is really designed to support the G8x

A good explanation, thanks.

[spdandpwr]

It should be noted that the B58 on the M40i includes an electric motor to assist with low rpm grunt.

[JOHNBMWM5]

Originally Posted by spdandpwr

It should be noted that the B58 on the M40i includes an electric motor to assist with low rpm grunt.

Yep a 48Volt hybrid system.

[allinon72]

That makes the disparity even worse as the B58 already has plenty of low end, now add more with an electric motor. Those test driving back to back are in for an unpleasant surprise!

[95wildtt]

It should be noted that the B58 on the M40i includes an electric motor to assist with low rpm grunt.

Originally Posted by JOHNBMWM5

Yep a 48Volt hybrid system.

Didn't know that... makes the low end even more noticeable I'm sure.

I was just speaking of the B58 in general, not the new hybrid variant in the 40i.
Looks like the Max Torque comes in about 1000 RMPs sooner on the 40i (that's the electric motor and a smaller turbo) but the peak is almost 100 ft/lbs less than the S58.

I believe BMW tuned the S58 for track and B58 for the street.

[Young04]

Originally Posted by Bestle

It's a characteristic of the engine, the M3/M4 guys share the same complaint. Unfortunately though, the X3/X4 have a ton more weight to shift so it's even more noticeable.

I have a pre-LCI X3MC and have had my G83 for almost a month. The G83 is world's better than my X3M in terms of low end torque/response. The G83 isn't that much lighter than my X3M either.

There is still a slight delay in my G83 but I don't think those complaining about bad low end response in the LCI S58 is the prevailing opinion. Kind of how if you read enough reviews about the X7, someone will complain about the ride quality. I have one of those too and it rides beautifully.

[spta97]

Originally Posted by spdandpwr

It should be noted that the B58 on the M40i includes an electric motor to assist with low rpm grunt.

Wow I didn't know that either.

The TQ doesn't seem to be that much unless they are not including the electric motor:

3.0-liter BMW M TwinPower Turbo inline 6-cylinder, 24-valve 382-hp engine. Combines a twin-scroll turbocharger with variable valve control (Double-VANOS and Valvetronic) and high-precision direct injection
48V mild hybrid system


HORSEPOWER (BHP @ RPM)
382 @ 5800-6500

TORQUE (LB-FT @ RPM)
369 @ 1800-5000

ACCELERATION 0 - 60 MPH AUTOMATIC (SEC)
4.4

[spdandpwr]

Originally Posted by allinon72

That makes the disparity even worse as the B58 already has plenty of low end, now add more with an electric motor. Those test driving back to back are in for an unpleasant surprise!

Given the price increases on /M models being much larger, there's now a bigger price and power band delta than ever before

[cehrl7]

I just picked up my 2022 X3MC this week. I haven't noticed any low end torque issue. I am still in break in mode, but it has plenty of low end torque. I also have a 2020 X3 M40i and don't notice it has any more low end torque than the X3MC. This issue is non existent in the LCI model.

[spdandpwr]

Originally Posted by cehrl7

I just picked up my 2022 X3MC this week. I haven't noticed any low end torque issue. I am still in break in mode, but it has plenty of low end torque. I also have a 2020 X3 M40i and don't notice it has any more low end torque than the X3MC. This issue is non existent in the LCI model.

Yeah, the LCIs have a better power band than the pre-LCIs for sure