BMW X3 Forum
BMW X3 Forum
Welcome to the ultimate BMW X3 community.
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      09-03-2021, 12:53 PM   #1
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Took the X3MC to a Track Day at PIR!

BIMMERPOST
     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com
Overall super impressed by the car and how it drove on track. Car has MSS Urban Springs (which probably hurt the time rather than helped it, as they tend to have a bit more sway and are softer than OEM) and I replaced the brake fluid with Castrol SRF. Other than that the car is stock. It had a very good overall balance with no issues with corner entry understeer.

Here is my fastest lap. Learned after the first session you have to do you quickest lap right after your outlap because after that the tires just don't have quite the same grip level. Brakes held up well although when pushing them hard they will start to fade. Moving the braking point on the 2 long straights back about 100 meters made them fade free for the entire 20min session.



I was on track for a 1.29 in the first full lap of my last session and I didn't realize until later I needed to turn all the safety features off. The car went into crash prevention mode braking into turn 10. It tightened the belts, rolled up the windows and turned the stability control back on.

It was almost 90deg ambient temps and the car had 0 issues pushing hard for 20min sessions.

I'll post the gopro incar vid when it's finished processing.
Appreciate 16
Spoonhead359.50
Max Well4692.00
allinon724892.00
HoJoRo315.50
m2otwo146.00
heavyD^23684.00
bSwiazzy200.50
r33_RGSport12805.00
kozzi927.00
MechX3M40i1006.00
AZM40i256.50
      09-04-2021, 08:56 AM   #2
MaxGainz
Private First Class
MaxGainz's Avatar
83
Rep
107
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3MC
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: British Columbia

iTrader: (0)

Damn quick for a stock big boy!
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2021, 09:11 AM   #3
robopp
Major
robopp's Avatar
1640
Rep
1,338
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3MC
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: MA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
What tires? P4S? Nice job!
Appreciate 0
      09-04-2021, 11:41 AM   #4
Transfer
Major General
Transfer's Avatar
5244
Rep
5,874
Posts

Drives: Bronco Wildtrak, Tesla MYP
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Issaquah, WA

iTrader: (1)

It's surprisingly capable on the track. I wouldn't make a habit of tracking it but blew my mind the one time I took it out!
Appreciate 2
      09-06-2021, 11:57 PM   #5
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by robopp View Post
What tires? P4S? Nice job!
Yes, I was lucky enough that my car came with the PS4S tires.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 12:35 AM   #6
2020X3MCDG
Private First Class
United_States
125
Rep
172
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3MC
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Awesome video. I just finished the 2 Day M school a few weeks ago and I was super impressed with the M Cars and the M4C was probably my favorite car we drove on the big track over the M5C. May have been biased since it is a similar platform. The cars at the performance center all have the Carbon Ceramic brakes and they were awesome.

I have never tracked my X3MC but I am more tempted than ever to try it. Need to see what is possible in my area.

Did you buy track insurance? What does that run?
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 01:34 AM   #7
BulkBen
Second Lieutenant
402
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: G80 M3, Mini x 2, Lotus x 4
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Tasmania, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Nice to see, and cheers for the report. That video is great, really helpful to see the data from Harry's timer too.

I too have done a track day with mine, it has a custom E70 tune making approx 700hp, EBC blue pads, SRF fluid and Pilot 4S (265 and 295).

I was impressed with its speed but found the brakes and tyres went within a few minutes, 3 laps on my track was too much, so had to alternate slow and fast laps constantly. It really suffered from understeer too. Laying on the power early out of corners was very tricky as the back end wanted to come around a bit.

I'm going back out in a few weeks once I have bolted M5 calipers on, built some proper brake ducts and added Cup 2 tyres square all round.

My goal is to equal the winner of a recent time attack in the street class, only have to pull off a second to do that.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 08:22 AM   #8
MRichmond
Private First Class
227
Rep
170
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR, e60 M5, e36 IP
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

If your tires go away after only one lap, your starting pressures were likely way too high. Depending on how hard the driver pushes, PS4s on a car of this type will gain anywhere from 4 to 9-10 psi in a 30-minute track session. PS4s (and other similar tires) are best when hot pressures are in the high 30s. So, if you are not already doing it, I suggest the following: start the day with pressures around 30 psi. Measure pressures in each tire immediately after coming off track (i.e., before even taking the helmet off), bleed each down to the target pressure. Rinse, repeat. Different tracks stress different tires, so you will get a feel for what cold pressure at each corner you should use at the start of a day.

Finally, turning off stability control is tempting, but very much not recommended until reaching fairly expert level. Enjoy and be careful.
Appreciate 2
MechX3M40i1006.00
PABrian149.50
      09-07-2021, 04:49 PM   #9
BulkBen
Second Lieutenant
402
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: G80 M3, Mini x 2, Lotus x 4
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Tasmania, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Ive had a bit of track experience, one car in the stable is a track car, first track session was over 20 years ago.
In the X3m I started at 30-32psi, got up between 36 and 38, so not too bad.
The understeer was a natural effect of the car being pushed too hard (which you’ll get when trying to max a lap time).
I think the 295 and 265 combo makes this worse, hence why I’m opting for a square setup next tome.

Many of us started driving and pushing cars well before traction and stability control existed, so turning these off is no issue. If you’ve lived with them and don’t know driving without them, I agree with you.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 11:36 PM   #10
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRichmond View Post
If your tires go away after only one lap, your starting pressures were likely way too high. Depending on how hard the driver pushes, PS4s on a car of this type will gain anywhere from 4 to 9-10 psi in a 30-minute track session. PS4s (and other similar tires) are best when hot pressures are in the high 30s. So, if you are not already doing it, I suggest the following: start the day with pressures around 30 psi. Measure pressures in each tire immediately after coming off track (i.e., before even taking the helmet off), bleed each down to the target pressure. Rinse, repeat. Different tracks stress different tires, so you will get a feel for what cold pressure at each corner you should use at the start of a day.

Finally, turning off stability control is tempting, but very much not recommended until reaching fairly expert level. Enjoy and be careful.
You can't run PS4's on this car in the high 30's, as you'd roll over the sidewall. my tires were wearing right at the edge of the tread compound and the sidewall running 43psi hot front and 47psi hot rear. Temps were peaking in the 170's at that pressure. I was also running less (cold) pressure on the left side as PIR has mostly right hand corners.

Like I said, I could run in the 1:31's pretty consistently lap after lap, but I could only get enough grip to run a 1.29-1.30 on the very first lap after the warm up lap. After that they just didn't have the extra grip to do that pace.

As for stability control... I ran 4wd sport with both MDM and DSC off, and DSC off was much better. In MDM mode it seemed to overheat the brakes much quicker and was producing slower lap times. Being smooth with DSC off the car was very well balanced with no real scary moments.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 11:38 PM   #11
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulkBen View Post
Ive had a bit of track experience, one car in the stable is a track car, first track session was over 20 years ago.
In the X3m I started at 30-32psi, got up between 36 and 38, so not too bad.
The understeer was a natural effect of the car being pushed too hard (which you’ll get when trying to max a lap time).
I think the 295 and 265 combo makes this worse, hence why I’m opting for a square setup next tome.

Many of us started driving and pushing cars well before traction and stability control existed, so turning these off is no issue. If you’ve lived with them and don’t know driving without them, I agree with you.
Also agree the understeer from your car was being caused by the wider rear tires. I had no understeer issues running the factory 255/265 combo.
Appreciate 0
      09-07-2021, 11:44 PM   #12
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Here is an incar lap of a 1.31. This was in my first session. Sadly the gopro accidently got put into timelapse and the rest of the sessions were all timelapse vids instead of video

Appreciate 1
MechX3M40i1006.00
      09-08-2021, 03:03 AM   #13
Kevin_The_Clean1
Brigadier General
Kevin_The_Clean1's Avatar
United_States
3124
Rep
3,810
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3 MC
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Campbell, CA

iTrader: (11)

These are very impressive machines!
__________________
1998 E36 M3 - Totaled
2003 E39 M5 - Gone but not forgotten
2011 E90 335i M-Sport - Daily Driver
2017 F87 M2 - Sold & missed
2020 F97 X3 M Competition - Finally arrived ///
Appreciate 0
      09-08-2021, 10:39 AM   #14
MRichmond
Private First Class
227
Rep
170
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR, e60 M5, e36 IP
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmactrr View Post
You can't run PS4's on this car in the high 30's, as you'd roll over the sidewall. my tires were wearing right at the edge of the tread compound and the sidewall running 43psi hot front and 47psi hot rear. Temps were peaking in the 170's at that pressure. I was also running less (cold) pressure on the left side as PIR has mostly right hand corners.

Like I said, I could run in the 1:31's pretty consistently lap after lap, but I could only get enough grip to run a 1.29-1.30 on the very first lap after the warm up lap. After that they just didn't have the extra grip to do that pace.

As for stability control... I ran 4wd sport with both MDM and DSC off, and DSC off was much better. In MDM mode it seemed to overheat the brakes much quicker and was producing slower lap times. Being smooth with DSC off the car was very well balanced with no real scary moments.
The tires and sidewalls will take a beating regardless due to (1) the weight of the car and (2) lack of meaningful negative camber. It is not surprising that your grip fell off so quickly at 43-47 psi. That is simply too high. (Makes perfect sense to start left at a lower pressure on a track that stresses that side more. If your hot pressures were even on the left and right side, then you got the relative starting pressures right. I do suggest you try high 30s hot. In any case, you can expect a set of these tires to be worn out after one track weekend due to the weight and lack of negative camber. (I corded the left front PS4 on my M5 at VIR after four track sessions. Consumables on cars like this on track get consumed quickly.)
Appreciate 2
MechX3M40i1006.00
jmg18493.00
      09-14-2021, 11:23 AM   #15
khoa@x-ph.com
Major
khoa@x-ph.com's Avatar
United_States
662
Rep
1,276
Posts

Drives: F83
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (0)

For an SUV on a track, that is impressive!!
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 12:34 AM   #16
to_riffic
Lieutenant General
to_riffic's Avatar
United_States
3010
Rep
13,745
Posts

Drives: rwd
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (38)

Is that a bell motorcycle helmet? I didn't know you could do trackdays in that.
__________________
~loud noises~

Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 05:29 AM   #17
Tallest
Major General
Tallest's Avatar
1280
Rep
6,304
Posts

Drives: 911
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sweden

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 911  [10.00]
As I never tried, but assume you have - is it more fun to drive the X3M or SUV in general on a track versus something like a dedicated sports car such as anything from BRZ to Caymant to Radical?

I am trying to understand what is the point in general, as my assumption is any sports car will run rings around it and it will be more fun - but may be I am wrong? Is it actually more fun to drive a massive car with heavy weight and higher center of gravity at speed, through corners etc?
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 07:26 AM   #18
BulkBen
Second Lieutenant
402
Rep
290
Posts

Drives: G80 M3, Mini x 2, Lotus x 4
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Tasmania, Australia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest View Post
As I never tried, but assume you have - is it more fun to drive the X3M or SUV in general on a track versus something like a dedicated sports car such as anything from BRZ to Caymant to Radical?

I am trying to understand what is the point in general, as my assumption is any sports car will run rings around it and it will be more fun - but may be I am wrong? Is it actually more fun to drive a massive car with heavy weight and higher center of gravity at speed, through corners etc?
My X3M is already faster than my modded Alfa 4C and my heavily modified Mini Cooper S around the track. It's close, but its ahead in lap times.

Typical sports cars do not run rings around these. You will absolutely blow away MX5's, BRZ's, most WRX's etc if you know how to drive and you are properly pushing the limits.

I am heading out in a few weeks and I know there will be some Cayman's and even a Lambo there. I expect to lap faster than them, mostly as they are driven by "Gentlemen".

These SUVs are VERY fast, particularly if modded, on an open track they are even better, my home track is quite tight.

If however you are up against a light, fast sports car AND the guy knows how to drive, well that will be a different story. In my experience that's quite rare at a track day.

The next question, are they fun?
Honestly, I was absolutely terrified driving mine the first time on the track. So much power (mine has over 700hp), while firm on the street it feels like a wallowing whale at times on the track.

If you put that aside and consider you are defying the laws of physics, and breaking lots of hearts, well that's how I get my kicks. If you are looking for a simple easy to drive car you can get in and drive all day, obviously its not for you.

I found the balance of getting the power down, managing under-steer and overheating brakes very taxing mentally, but that part of the challenge. Ultimately its a car you take to the track every few months, its never going to replace a proper track car for those who go out at monthly (or more regular) intervals.
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 12:17 PM   #19
doodlebro
Lieutenant
United_States
121
Rep
470
Posts

Drives: '17 X3 35i
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Denver

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmactrr View Post
Car has MSS Urban Springs (which probably hurt the time rather than helped it, as they tend to have a bit more sway and are softer than OEM)
Stiffer isn't better. Most OEM coilovers are waaaaaay too stiff from the factory. You probably helped your lap times, all things considered.
__________________
Current mods
Rockford Fosgate P3 // JBL MS-A5001 // MiniDSP
Ultra Racing Strut Brace // AFe Pro Dry S // PS2 // Custom Inlet // DV+ // FTP Boost Pipes // VRSF Race IC // VRSF Downpipe // ECUTek Protune @ 5280'
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 12:40 PM   #20
MRichmond
Private First Class
227
Rep
170
Posts

Drives: F-Pace SVR, e60 M5, e36 IP
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest View Post
As I never tried, but assume you have - is it more fun to drive the X3M or SUV in general on a track versus something like a dedicated sports car such as anything from BRZ to Caymant to Radical?

I am trying to understand what is the point in general, as my assumption is any sports car will run rings around it and it will be more fun - but may be I am wrong? Is it actually more fun to drive a massive car with heavy weight and higher center of gravity at speed, through corners etc?
With the same reasonably skilled driver, a sports car with less power will turn faster lap times than one of these SUVs. There always will be exceptions, such as if comparing very low power cars on tracks with long straights, and if the driver's skill is restricted to mashing the accelerator to the floor. (A Radical will demolish not just any SUV, but the Caymans and BRZs you mention.)

What is more fun is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. Having driven on track everything from high-HP SUVs and sedans to fully caged race cars, I think the latter are more fun because they allow the driver to improve his skills more. Also, having tracked and raced properly prepared cars with real safety gear, it is not nearly as fun blasting at over 160 mph into a hard braking zone with nothing but a helmet and a three-point seat belt. For anyone planning to make track excursions a regular occurrence, I strongly urge acquiring a dedicated track car. In addition to improving skill, the safety gear is absolutely critical and there simply is not a viable street-track car compromise with adequate protection (especially given how capable and powerful current models are). In addition, the cost of consumables (tires, brakes, etc.) is much less in a car that weighs less than 3,000 lbs instead of 4,500-6,000, and one in which the suspension can be dialed in with significant negative camber.
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 03:01 PM   #21
richard in NC
Colonel
United_States
1225
Rep
2,602
Posts

Drives: 2009 Z4 35i
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Charlotte, NC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRichmond View Post
With the same reasonably skilled driver, a sports car with less power will turn faster lap times than one of these SUVs. There always will be exceptions, such as if comparing very low power cars on tracks with long straights, and if the driver's skill is restricted to mashing the accelerator to the floor. (A Radical will demolish not just any SUV, but the Caymans and BRZs you mention.)

What is more fun is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. Having driven on track everything from high-HP SUVs and sedans to fully caged race cars, I think the latter are more fun because they allow the driver to improve his skills more. Also, having tracked and raced properly prepared cars with real safety gear, it is not nearly as fun blasting at over 160 mph into a hard braking zone with nothing but a helmet and a three-point seat belt. For anyone planning to make track excursions a regular occurrence, I strongly urge acquiring a dedicated track car. In addition to improving skill, the safety gear is absolutely critical and there simply is not a viable street-track car compromise with adequate protection (especially given how capable and powerful current models are). In addition, the cost of consumables (tires, brakes, etc.) is much less in a car that weighs less than 3,000 lbs instead of 4,500-6,000, and one in which the suspension can be dialed in with significant negative camber.
All good points but that doesn't take away from the fact that stock for stock, the X3M/X4M are quite capable on track in the hands of a capable driver.

Bringing up an example again, I witnessed first hand how good the X3M/X4M are at a BMW Performance Center autocross (big and open for an autocross course but not a full racetrack).
Experienced drivers with track prepped and even caged e36/e46 M3s and M Coupes were running mid to high 80s per run. My personal best in a stock M2C is 89 seconds. Mike Renner in an X4M with 3 passengers was running consistent 82s!!!!!!!! Oh, and with chicanes here and there, max speeds were 90 something for the fastest cars so it wasn't just a power/top end advantage.
__________________
2020 X3M non-comp, Alpine White over black : Exec Pkg, ventilated M Sport seats, 20"s
2020 M2 Comp, Sunset Orange/Blk: Orange stitching, DCT, exec pkg, bicolor rims
Gone '18 M550i, '16 X4 M40i, '15 M5, '13 X3 35i, '12 335is, '11 X5 50i, '09 Z4 35i, '08 550i, 06 X3, 06 650i, '02 M5, '99 540i
Appreciate 0
      09-15-2021, 03:45 PM   #22
tarmactrr
Private
87
Rep
81
Posts

Drives: Toyota Supra Twin Turbo
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: OR

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by doodlebro View Post
Stiffer isn't better. Most OEM coilovers are waaaaaay too stiff from the factory. You probably helped your lap times, all things considered.
and where are you getting evidence that the stock springs are too stiff?

I'm 99.9% certain the MSS springs hurt my time. Why? Because they create noticable more roll. More roll equals less contact patch on the tire when the car has little negative camber to begin with.

PIR is not a track where you need softer suspension to deal with bumps or dips and crests. It's very smooth and therefore you can run stiffer suspension setups with positive results.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:40 AM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST