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      07-12-2020, 09:32 AM   #45
Marty in NY
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Volkom , did you see what tuta posted with what he found on his? Your pic was too close up to see what yours looked like but take a look at this pic, his right side guide is either broken or missing, what did yours look like? This was in the BMW engine class action suit thread.

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      07-12-2020, 10:58 AM   #46
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I saw that this morning yeah, what are the odds this is happening so often? Wow
I just went to check to see if that part is there- it is.
BUT
I did find a broken piece of the guide!!!


Well, maybe time to email BMW NA with the pics, what do you guys think? Might be worth a shot...

Also, it's worth noting the chain is extemely tight, so much so that it won't even lift or budge.
I don't think even the tensioner is supposed to keep it this tight, maybe it's the chain that's stuck somehow holding the engine. Either way, I'm not dropping the oil pan to find out if it turns out I have to screw it back together and dump it at the BMW service center for them to cover it once the settlement verdict comes out.
Engine replacement would have been quicker than dealing with the wiring harness on the valve cover removal....
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      07-12-2020, 11:09 AM   #47
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Oh yeah, definitely get some good pics of it and send them in. I still think they'll tell you to get lost but let us know how it goes.

I've seen pics from other guide breakages and it seems like that is a common area for them to break at. I bet some of those plastic chunks dropped down and jammed up the oil pump gear or at the very least got caught up in the oil pickup and starved the engine of oil.
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      07-12-2020, 11:27 AM   #48
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Sure seems like it, but it's almost not worth it to find out any more right? Either way I've got bad options- bent valves? from a timing chain misalignment or the rest of the engines been starved for oil and it's screwed, apparently you can't hone the N20 cyl walls because they are coated. The engine probably has to be replaced either way.

Spending another 5 hours figuring out how to drop the axle/diff to get to the oil pan from below without a lift seems like a pretty difficult way to satisfy my curiosity.

My brother's mailed me his borescope, maybe I'll peep through to see what's going on through a plug...

I wonder if BMW will give me shit or if they will reimburse for the engine with just pictures. In that case, if I take this seized engine out I'd be happy to drop it off at the service center.

The settlement looming over me makes it a tough choice...
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      07-12-2020, 11:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkom View Post
Sure seems like it, but it's almost not worth it to find out any more right? Either way I've got bad options- bent valves? from a timing chain misalignment or the rest of the engines been starved for oil and it's screwed, apparently you can't hone the N20 cyl walls because they are coated. The engine probably has to be replaced either way.

Spending another 5 hours figuring out how to drop the axle/diff to get to the oil pan from below without a lift seems like a pretty difficult way to satisfy my curiosity.

My brother's mailed me his borescope, maybe I'll peep through to see what's going on through a plug...

I wonder if BMW will give me shit or if they will reimburse for the engine with just pictures. In that case, if I take this seized engine out I'd be happy to drop it off at the service center.

The settlement looming over me makes it a tough choice...
I have not read through the lawsuit post, just scanned a couple of threads but at this point, after finding a broken chain guide, I suggest you read through it if you haven't already. Seems there is a cut off of 70K miles but you might be able to persuade them to accept you since you recently bought the car. I know you know where the thread is but here's the link https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1556009

In the threads first reply was info that you can use to contact and see what your chances are of being included, who knows, maybe you can get a partial payment if not the whole thing - you have nothing to lose.

"The BMW owners are represented by Joseph R. Santoli, Gary S. Graifman and Jay I. Brody of Kantrowitz Goldhamer & Graifman PC; Bruce H. Nagel and Randee M. Matloff of Nagel Rice LLP; and Thomas P. Sobran of Thomas P. Sobran PC.

The BMW Engine Defect Class Action Lawsuit is Gelis, et al. v. Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaft, et al., Case No. 2:17*-cv-07386, in the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey
"
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      07-12-2020, 12:49 PM   #50
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Ugh, crappy!

Random question, just in case - try to turn the engine over the opposite direction from the first time? Maybe you can unstick something? Obviously can't unbend a valve if that's what's happened, but if something's lodged in the chain.... perhaps?

Also stating the obvious, don't get too far into it w/out some discussion w/ BMW. Don't give them any chance to deny a claim.
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      07-12-2020, 12:58 PM   #51
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Just tried the counter clockwise thing thinking the same thing, doesn't budge a mm either direction.
That's also my main concern for not having contacted them yet, them denying a claim for some arbitrary reason.

It seems like the best course of action is bring the engine in knowing well what the issue is, have them diagnose it themselves, and catch them lying if they claim that it's not the timing chain.

Edit: I'll send an email in anyway haha
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      07-12-2020, 01:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkom View Post
Just tried the counter clockwise thing thinking the same thing, doesn't budge a mm either direction.
That's also my main concern for not having contacted them yet, them denying a claim for some arbitrary reason.

It seems like the best course of action is bring the engine in knowing well what the issue is, have them diagnose it themselves, and catch them lying if they claim that it's not the timing chain.

Edit: I'll send an email in anyway haha
They will know someone removed the cover and then all bets will be off, I mean its easy to see by looking at the bolts and surrounding area that someone has already had valve cover off. Provided your valve cover gasket is in good shape, I would reuse it and not put a new one on. Once you get the borescope, check all four cylinders. I've not seen you state whether you tried turning the engine with the plugs out or maybe I just missed it but when you pull the plugs to scope the cylinders, if you haven't already, try turning the engine again.

Also, did you determine that the tranny is indeed in Park? I recall you questioning that. I'd be giving the lawyers a call for guidance, they should be able to give you advice on how to approach BMW so as not to get the boot.
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      07-12-2020, 05:07 PM   #53
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I got it into neutral via the manual release bolt beneath the vehicle, which in and of itself is ridiculous.

Everything about this car is a nightmare in terms of emergencies- from the lack of an oem spare to the inability to shift a dead engine, it really is designed to be towed to the dealer.
It takes a special kind of design team to put the pawl release on the driver side beneath a plastic skirt. I'm supposed to get under the car and dangle my feet inches from semi trucks and hold a flashlight in my mouth at the same time? Laughable...

The engine is 10000% seized, plugs out, breaker bar and two guys trying lol.

Lawyers it is, gonna call them Monday morning and see what they say, thanks for the contact info guys
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      07-12-2020, 07:21 PM   #54
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Good luck Volky...
Give 'em hell Sir
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      07-12-2020, 09:55 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkom View Post
I got it into neutral via the manual release bolt beneath the vehicle, which in and of itself is ridiculous.

Everything about this car is a nightmare in terms of emergencies- from the lack of an oem spare to the inability to shift a dead engine, it really is designed to be towed to the dealer.
It takes a special kind of design team to put the pawl release on the driver side beneath a plastic skirt. I'm supposed to get under the car and dangle my feet inches from semi trucks and hold a flashlight in my mouth at the same time? Laughable...

The engine is 10000% seized, plugs out, breaker bar and two guys trying lol.

Lawyers it is, gonna call them Monday morning and see what they say, thanks for the contact info guys
I was really hoping it wasn't going to end up this way but it is what it is. You gave it a good go in trying to figure it out, should be proud of your efforts.
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      07-12-2020, 11:50 PM   #56
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My efforts were fueled by the incredible help and support you and others gave me. Im forever grateful for the advice strangers on the internet can give you in times of stress and need. Thank you, genuinely.
I'll keep with updates as a record for others.
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      07-13-2020, 09:25 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volkom View Post
My efforts were fueled by the incredible help and support you and others gave me. Im forever grateful for the advice strangers on the internet can give you in times of stress and need. Thank you, genuinely.
I'll keep with updates as a record for others.
I hope they will overlook being 2k over the warranty threshold. Good luck.
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      07-13-2020, 03:21 PM   #58
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BMW says they need a diagnosis from a BMW dealership/service center to even proceed with determining if the claim would be covered or not.

I might email a service advisor with the details and pictures- what do you guys think?
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      07-13-2020, 03:26 PM   #59
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Quote:
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BMW says they need a diagnosis from a BMW dealership/service center to even proceed with determining if the claim would be covered or not.

I might email a service advisor with the details and pictures- what do you guys think?
Not sure, its worth a shot I guess but be sure to lay out the story as to why you can't take it to a dealer and even then, they may recommend you flat bed it there so they can see it with their eyes and poke around like a forensic examiner. They probably also want to pull codes and see whatever else they can find to prove you caused it. Of course, they will charge you for all that.
Have you talked with the class action lawyer company yet?
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      07-13-2020, 03:54 PM   #60
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Yes, the lawyer I spoke with was extremely helpful- fantastic guy. He couldn't give me any concrete details about how it's going to go down, which I understand, but the conversation amounted to something along the lines of:
* Save the evidence you have, pictures, numbers, invoices, etc.
* Don't expect BMW to cover full costs, that's still being worked out. An extremely large portion, but perhaps not ALL. My labor wouldn't be covered.
* Drain the oil and see if you find any flakes/plastic/metal- save it in a jar.

Based on the tone of the conversation and my talk with BMW NA, I am proceeding with emailing a dealership service advisor just to have the situation on record. The fantastic irony of the situation is that before I hit 7/70k when I had to turbo oil feed line replaced I asked about the timing chain and they denied preventative replacement. Even with knowledge you are still powerless sometimes.

I am also going to buy and replace an engine with a model year/production date that ensures the factory put in a new guide/chain.

I expect my email to the service advisor to not be fruitful, but may be handy if BMW loses the lawsuit. I do not think I have any real chance of avoiding a diagnostic fee if I email them pictures of the chain with details, but I would rather that avenue be explored than left open.
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      07-14-2020, 09:12 AM   #61
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Best of luck.
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      08-02-2020, 06:21 PM   #62
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That's the oil pump chain and guide/sprocket.
Found a big piece of plastic in the oil pan.

Having trouble getting the pan out. Since the engine is seized I can't unbolt the engine from the transmission otherwise I'd have my new one in already.

Im gonna try pulling the pan out and unbolting the rods from the crankshaft then pulling everything but the crankshaft up, then unbolting the skeleton of what's left from the tranny. If not I'll just break the oil pan into pieces and take it out that way.

I can't feasibly remove the trans and engine as one assembly with my equipment.

Sucks the lawsuit got moved but it's gonna be an uphill battle as a diy without a BMW diagnosis. Hopefully images are evidence enough. If not I'll see if it's possible to go to small claims over it. Itemize the engine, specialized tools I needed to buy, engine oil, diff fluid, filter, coolant, etc.

If I can do small claims they can't send a lawyer, just a company rep, and the NYC limit is high enough to cover what ive lost in parts.

This engines a nightmare because it's AWD and the CV axles go through the front diff which passes through the oil pan.
If you have a RWD N20 I can imagine you could knock this out in a weekend no problem.
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      08-03-2020, 12:24 PM   #63
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I don't understand why you can't separate the engine from the tranny. Even with the engine locked up, the crankshaft is connected to the torque converter which should spin freely unlike an manual transmission and wouldn't cause binding within the drivetrain.
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      08-03-2020, 01:38 PM   #64
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I have to unscrew these 6 bolts in order to disconnect the engine from the trans.



I can only access one bolt at a time from below the transmission through a little hole, and I'd get to all 6 if the engine would turn.
Since the engine is seized and still directly connected to the transmission I don't believe there's any way for me to get around this despite the torque converter free spinning otherwise.

Am i misunderstanding this?
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      08-03-2020, 01:56 PM   #65
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Gotcha. Those I believe are the torque converter to flywheel/flexplate bolts. The torque converter slides off the input shaft and the motor can be removed with the converter still attached to the flywheel. Not sure why BMWs would be different

Last edited by 383vett; 08-04-2020 at 08:45 AM..
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