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      02-15-2019, 01:15 AM   #353
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Any explanation why the X3M is 150+lbs heavier than a GLC63 with a heavy V8TT?
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      02-15-2019, 06:45 AM   #354
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Any explanation why the X3M is 150+lbs heavier than a GLC63 with a heavy V8TT?
Because M emblems
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      02-15-2019, 08:03 AM   #355
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Quote:
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Any explanation why the X3M is 150+lbs heavier than a GLC63 with a heavy V8TT?
and 235 lbs heavier than the Jaguar SVR with a V8 as well
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      02-15-2019, 09:45 AM   #356
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FYI - X3Mís 265 40 21 has wider tread than M40iís 275 35 21.
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      02-15-2019, 10:08 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Is it just me or is Toronto Red similar to Sakhir Orange but more true red (still hints on that orange side).
Toronto Red is much more similar to HellRot than SO. It doesn't have the candy paint effect that SO has.
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      02-15-2019, 10:28 AM   #358
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FYI - X3M’s 265 40 21 has wider tread than M40i’s 275 35 21.
Um...
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      02-15-2019, 11:07 AM   #359
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Toronto Red is much more similar to HellRot than SO. It doesn't have the candy paint effect that SO has.
the more I see it in videos the more I agree, maybe even Ferrari Red

makes me wonder how close it will be to the SO interior leather, which in photos looks more red than ever before, and in the X4M they do have the seats with SO inserts on the Toronto Red exterior. I do realize full SO on Toronto Red is a lot of red/orange. Just really wish they had a good interior option to go with Toronto Red exterior (don't care for that beige, have kids so don't want ivory, grey just doesn't look right, plain black is boring, I know I have it in my M3). I am too cheap to spring for custom/individual leather seats...
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      02-15-2019, 12:07 PM   #360
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Good views of Toronto Red, gray/sakhir interior, and black/beige interior in this new Facebook video:
https://www.facebook.com/BMW.M/videos/2663685253671893/

I really like the black/beige seats. Some views make it look a little yellow but I bet pics that look more brown are the accurate ones.
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      02-15-2019, 12:50 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
Any explanation why the X3M is 150+lbs heavier than a GLC63 with a heavy V8TT?
I'm speculating it's all the suspension and chassis reinforcement in an attempt to make a 2 ton SUV handle remotely like a sports car. This is my main gripe with these performance SUVs. They're trying to make something inherently non-sporty in to something sporty just by throwing a ton of horsepower and low profile tires at it, ruining the ride Comfort and negating it's role as a utility vehicle. You're left with owning a fast, uncomfortable, tire hungry, gas thirsty elephant to show off to your neighbors and not much else.
You just described every BMW Lexus Audi and Mercedes Benz.
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      02-15-2019, 01:46 PM   #362
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I'm speculating it's all the suspension and chassis reinforcement in an attempt to make a 2 ton SUV handle remotely like a sports car. This is my main gripe with these performance SUVs. They're trying to make something inherently non-sporty in to something sporty just by throwing a ton of horsepower and low profile tires at it, ruining the ride Comfort and negating it's role as a utility vehicle. You're left with owning a fast, uncomfortable, tire hungry, gas thirsty elephant to show off to your neighbors and not much else.
I could care less what my neighbors think. Most of them drive more expensive vehicles and probably think BMWs are cheap lol.

For those of us with large families and room for only one vehicle, it's about time we have some options to haul our lives around in something fun that checks all the boxes.
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      02-15-2019, 02:41 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
I would likely go for glass roof delete. I'm sure it weighs a LOT more than 57 lbs. These things can weigh 100-200 lbs all in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
It's not going to happen for the US market. The X3 M40i has option 402 as standard, which means moonroof is standard for US X3M/X4M. Due to DOT safety testing, if BMW NA has 402 standard for certification, then it can not be deleted. No way around it, unless you import a euro spec roof with 402 deleted and retro yourself.
A Dealer allowed me to measure a used 2016 F15ís Panorama roof Ė 35Ē x 42Ē, or 1470 in sq. Therefore, 103.45 lbs./1470 in sq yields 0.0703 lbs./in sq. Using that to estimate the weight of X3Mís moon roof Ė 0.0703 lbs./in sq x 1800 in sq = 126.6 lbs. for the X3M Moon roof. Subtracting 15 lbs. for what the Aluminum OEM part of that space is (if moon roof deleted), yields 112 lbs erased off the highest point where it yields the most benefit.

Once the weight distribution %ís are known one can roughly quantify the significance for improving the CG and SSF (static stability factor, equals [track width/2] divided by CG height). For my previous calculations based on Curb wt of 4317 lbs and moon roof wt of 67 lbs., the CG was lowered 1Ē and the SSF improved from 1.26 to a near car-like 1.32. Obviously moon roof delete of 112 lbs. will be even more significant. Loads of online sites review and discuss these terms if you search CG and SSF and desire more background on the subject.

As the US Govt and Automotive Industry have worked diligently for > 15 years to lower rollover accidents, most common in SUVs and Pick-ups, by stressing the value in lowering CG and raising SSF in vehicle design, it is incomprehensible to me that BMW wouldnít/couldnít get quick approval from Govt agencies on this simple request of replacing a heavy moon roof with a solid OEM aluminum version here in the US. The FDA has proven it can fast track meds which clearly show significant clinical benefit when side effect data support safety. And in this case, extensive literature and studies documenting the critical benefits of making such changes to SUVs are readily available, fully endorsed and encouraged by the NHTSA of the DOT, which actually demanded ĎRollover resistance ratings. And there is no expense to BMW as they already have a solid roof going on X3Ms to other countries. Itís one thing for the í18 G01 models in the US to not get the M Sport steering wheel, but this is a totally different ballgame and one that clearly impacts safety. And although a CFRP roof would have been even more helpful, it probably only removes an additional 18 lbs. over the OEM solid Al roof so hard to be dogmatic on that, even though I lobbied heavily for it and still think it should be an option for M Enthusiasts.

So if Ibiza is correct in his assertion that US X3M owners will not be able to delete the Moon Roof from our orders, a choice which would clearly improve our safety and the stability of our X3M (and thereby improve handling and cornering and surely skid pad data), perhaps some calls to NHTSA and DOT are in order to see what they could recommend Ö
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      02-15-2019, 03:17 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Well View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
I would likely go for glass roof delete. I'm sure it weighs a LOT more than 57 lbs. These things can weigh 100-200 lbs all in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
It's not going to happen for the US market. The X3 M40i has option 402 as standard, which means moonroof is standard for US X3M/X4M. Due to DOT safety testing, if BMW NA has 402 standard for certification, then it can not be deleted. No way around it, unless you import a euro spec roof with 402 deleted and retro yourself.
A Dealer allowed me to measure a used 2016 F15's Panorama roof – 35" x 42", or 1470 in sq. Therefore, 103.45 lbs./1470 in sq yields 0.0703 lbs./in sq. Using that to estimate the weight of X3M's moon roof – 0.0703 lbs./in sq x 1800 in sq = 126.6 lbs. for the X3M Moon roof. Subtracting 15 lbs. for what the Aluminum OEM part of that space is (if moon roof deleted), yields 112 lbs erased off the highest point where it yields the most benefit.

Once the weight distribution %'s are known one can roughly quantify the significance for improving the CG and SSF (static stability factor, equals [track width/2] divided by CG height). For my previous calculations based on Curb wt of 4317 lbs and moon roof wt of 67 lbs., the CG was lowered 1" and the SSF improved from 1.26 to a near car-like 1.32. Obviously moon roof delete of 112 lbs. will be even more significant. Loads of online sites review and discuss these terms if you search CG and SSF and desire more background on the subject.

As the US Govt and Automotive Industry have worked diligently for > 15 years to lower rollover accidents, most common in SUVs and Pick-ups, by stressing the value in lowering CG and raising SSF in vehicle design, it is incomprehensible to me that BMW wouldn't/couldn't get quick approval from Govt agencies on this simple request of replacing a heavy moon roof with a solid OEM aluminum version here in the US. The FDA has proven it can fast track meds which clearly show significant clinical benefit when side effect data support safety. And in this case, extensive literature and studies documenting the critical benefits of making such changes to SUVs are readily available, fully endorsed and encouraged by the NHTSA of the DOT, which actually demanded 'Rollover resistance ratings. And there is no expense to BMW as they already have a solid roof going on X3Ms to other countries. It's one thing for the '18 G01 models in the US to not get the M Sport steering wheel, but this is a totally different ballgame and one that clearly impacts safety. And although a CFRP roof would have been even more helpful, it probably only removes an additional 18 lbs. over the OEM solid Al roof so hard to be dogmatic on that, even though I lobbied heavily for it and still think it should be an option for M Enthusiasts.

So if Ibiza is correct in his assertion that US X3M owners will not be able to delete the Moon Roof from our orders, a choice which would clearly improve our safety and the stability of our X3M (and thereby improve handling and cornering and surely skid pad data), perhaps some calls to NHTSA and DOT are in order to see what they could recommend …
But does it really matter in a car that already weighs 4600 lbs. BMW doesn't want to spend the money to crash test a solid roof X3M.
I think it matters a little. Probably not enough for a big crash test investment to BMW if that would be required, but I would strongly consider deleting the fat kid off my roof.
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      02-15-2019, 03:29 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
I'm speculating it's all the suspension and chassis reinforcement in an attempt to make a 2 ton SUV handle remotely like a sports car. This is my main gripe with these performance SUVs. They're trying to make something inherently non-sporty in to something sporty just by throwing a ton of horsepower and low profile tires at it, ruining the ride Comfort and negating it's role as a utility vehicle. You're left with owning a fast, uncomfortable, tire hungry, gas thirsty elephant to show off to your neighbors and not much else.
Are there really people that buy something so expensive and unnecessary just to show off to their neighbours rather than the desire to enjoy it?
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      02-15-2019, 03:32 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
But does it really matter in a car that already weighs 4600 lbs. BMW doesn't want to spend the money to crash test a solid roof X3M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transfer View Post
I think it matters a little. Probably not enough for a big crash test investment to BMW if that would be required, but I would strongly consider deleting the fat kid off my roof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
As a fat kid I take offense to that but yea CF roof would be nice but I mean it's not even offered as a factory option for the M2 Competition, the Ultimate M Car, the Spiritual Successor to the E46, the Second Coming of the 1M.


In all seriousness, didn't BMW already crash the X3M without the fat kid on the roof in the EU? They do test for safety there, right?

Damn I have too much free time today.
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      02-15-2019, 03:48 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
If that were true why don't get to buy European models without side reflectors? Each country has its own requirements.
You don't crash test vehicles for reflectors (or maybe you do) but I get your point.
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      02-15-2019, 04:27 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
It's not going to happen for the US market. The X3 M40i has option 402 as standard, which means moonroof is standard for US X3M/X4M. Due to DOT safety testing, if BMW NA has 402 standard for certification, then it can not be deleted. No way around it, unless you import a euro spec roof with 402 deleted and retro yourself.
German Price ordering guide posted here - suggests that the M drivers package (that increases the speed to 177MPH) can not be ordered with glass pano roof.
Maybe it is our $2400 roof delete option.

Not sure what Germans must be thinking - it is Ok to roll the car at 155 with glass roof but at 177 it is just a no-no
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      02-15-2019, 04:39 PM   #369
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Quote:
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But does it really matter in a car that already weighs 4600 lbs. BMW doesn't want to spend the money to crash test a solid roof X3M.
Suspect your comment is only meant to foster discussion, and that's fine.

But if you really haven't read much on the subject I would respectfully suggest reading some of it. This isn't about CF bling for parts (which look great but have little to do with aerodynamics or weight savings for the small parts offered). It is the SUV group (and other taller vehicles) these initiatives are specifically targeting considering they are inherently more unstable than lower platforms. The stability controls which BMW and others have instituted have gone a long way to improve the risks, but they aren't fool-proof against the Physics involved.

And to be clear, my point is not about resurrecting hope for the CFRP (that is a lost cause), but rather simply allowing US customers the chance to opt out of the heavy moon roof (if Ibiza's comment is accurate). There really is no tenable argument here against the benefits of removing 112 lbs off the roof of a car when it comes to dynamics and handling.

Here are some links as background:

https://www-esv.nhtsa.dot.gov/procee...ESV-000153.PDF
http://www.accidentreconstruction.co...ers%5b1%5d.pdf
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api...ication/809868
https://www.nap.edu/read/10308/chapter/4
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      02-15-2019, 06:00 PM   #370
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[QUOTE=Ilyam5;24387020]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post

German Price ordering guide posted here - suggests that the M drivers package (that increases the speed to 177MPH) can not be ordered with glass pano roof.
Maybe it is our $2400 roof delete option.

Not sure what Germans must be thinking - it is Ok to roll the car at 155 with glass roof but at 177 it is just a no-no
The M4 convertible can also be ordered with the M drivers package. I had my speed limiter removed during my F83 ED, after Welt pick-up went directly to a tuner in Germany. Stage II tune was cheaper than the $2,500 M drivers package.
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      02-15-2019, 06:08 PM   #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureModelsOnly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
Any explanation why the X3M is 150+lbs heavier than a GLC63 with a heavy V8TT?
I'm speculating it's all the suspension and chassis reinforcement in an attempt to make a 2 ton SUV handle remotely like a sports car. This is my main gripe with these performance SUVs. They're trying to make something inherently non-sporty in to something sporty just by throwing a ton of horsepower and low profile tires at it, ruining the ride Comfort and negating it's role as a utility vehicle. You're left with owning a fast, uncomfortable, tire hungry, gas thirsty elephant to show off to your neighbors and not much else.
I disagree with ride comfort ruined. My X5M with 21 inch tires is comfortable to drive/ride in, but coastal SC has smooth roads. No pot holes to deal with. One of my BMW NA contacts told me the F85/F86 has the most comfortable seats in the product line-up.

I agree that it's a gas thirsty, but in a low cost fuel state (SC) it's relative as the X3M with the S58 will have better MPG than the V8 S63.
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      02-15-2019, 06:19 PM   #372
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
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Of course it is. Most vents on BMW's are fake.
Right, but not on Ms (except for M2 that is).
There's a long history of fake M vents. Z3M, E46 M3, E90 M3, E60 M5, F10 M5 all have fake side vents, The X5 M has sported a fake diffuser for most generations. The Z8 had fake side vents. There's more, but this certainly isn't anything new to M Land.
I can't speak to the other cars, but I recall a great debate over the e46 M3 side Gill functionality when the car came out.

It was a big design element with BMW marketing the heck out of it - seemed strange that the design and marketing team pushed an aesthetic non-functional component.

Turns out engineers from BMW claimed one side was functional (but the functional side depended on geography) to cool the ECU.
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      02-15-2019, 06:48 PM   #373
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I think thats a M3 in front of it, if it is then this is a good photo to show SO vs TR color.

Also note that BMW Blog says they were not allowed to take interior photos, makes you wonder if thats because this car has the "updated dash" that is rumored to come with August production... although the Nav screen in this photo doesn't appear slanted like the new 3 series.
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      02-15-2019, 09:37 PM   #374
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Quote:
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FYI - X3Mís 265 40 21 has wider tread than M40iís 275 35 21.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who's on first View Post
Um...
Lol sounds counterintuitive but actual width is also dependent on profile height. A 265 40 21 P4S has a wider tread width than a 275 35 21 P4S. Check out tirerack and look at the specs for the P4S. Tread width of 9.5 vs 9.2 respectively.
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