[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by YasM3

Now you edited your post....

How do you know my needs? I am merely pointing out the lack of power in the 3000 and below range. The M3/M4 will have this EXACT power curve. Yes it will be faster, but below 3000 rpms it will act the exactly the same. That is what we are talking about going back to the original question from OP. No I dont want a Tesla.......

Bro read post #7 where I said the s58 has a low power dip. Read all my posts after where I said this is not ideal.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

M340i (awd) is 3,9xx lbs

M3 will have similar power train and zf from M5. (More weight)

Carbon roof and some more aluminum bits will cut some weight but not sure if the s58 with the 2 turbo setup and reinforced internals may weigh a bit more than the b58

X3 M40i is 250 lbs lighter than X3M. I therefore think G80 AWD will be around 4150-4200. The S58, all the additional radiators, transmission cooling, ton of additional bracing.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

Dude, diesel cars have a lot of low end torque. You can swiftly accelerate without downshifting, exactly what you like. What’s not to understand?

DUDE, thanks for that expert advice

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

X3 M40i is 250 lbs lighter than X3M. I therefore think G80 AWD will be around 4150-4200. The S58, all the additional radiators, transmission cooling, ton of additional bracing.

That’s true. It’s sad, 4200 lbs is way too much to make a car sporty and tossable imo

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Bro read post #7 where I said the s58 has a low power dip. Read all my posts after where I said this is not ideal.

BRO, I hear you

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by YasM3

Even driving around town. You do not want to redline everywhere. Its nice to have low end pull at part throttle without having to redline it anytime you want to accelerate aggessively.

You wouldn’t like any Porsche sports cars then. The power band is much higher up in the revs even their turbo cars.. It is much more rewarding to drive up top. I spend most of my drives above 4K where the fun is.

Reward is worth working for, people miss NA engines because it’s fun to drive and the power is linear.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by YasM3

DUDE, thanks for that expert advice

You’re welcome. Always happy to help

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by YasM3

BRO, I hear you

Try driving an E46 m3 (the m3 everyone seems to love) where the power is all up top. There’s basically no torque down low.

You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Try driving an E46 m3 (the m3 everyone seems to love) where the power is all up top. There’s basically no torque down low.

You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

That’s why the GT3 RS is the most fun to drive car one can possibly buy these days (besides some expensive exotics). I am a Porsche fanboy too.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

You wouldn’t like any Porsche sports cars then. The power band is much higher up in the revs even their turbo cars.. It is much more rewarding to drive up top. I spend most of my drives above 4K where the fun is.

Reward is worth working for, people miss NA engines because it’s fun to drive and the power is linear.

You have a massive misconception on what I like or what you "think" I like. I dont know how many other ways to explain it. I said sub 3000rpms is horrid in the X3M, that is fact.
That doesnt mean I hate the damn thing or I should buy something else. Again, just pointing out and confirming for OPs original question.

With that being said. I own and build/built many many cars of all different calibers and driving styles. Some where it doesnt full spool until 5000 rpms but runs 8s on pump gas and street driven. Some where it makes 700-800ftlbs of TQ @ 2500RPMs immediately when you hit the throttle without any delay.

That doesnt mean I dont like the S58, or need a diesel, or id hate a Porsche or I should buy a Tesla. The last time I am saying it.....

[Will Pwr]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Try driving an E46 m3 (the m3 everyone seems to love) where the power is all up top. There’s basically no torque down low.

You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

Been there... twice....and its one of my fav cars to drive still. In fact, the E46 M3 really isnt that bad at all.....an AP1 S2000 really has no guts below VTEC though.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Try driving an E46 m3 (the m3 everyone seems to love) where the power is all up top. There’s basically no torque down low.

You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

[forza1976]

So what you are all saying is the s58 has lots of low end torque? Blahahhahahaha.

[floating.spirit]

Originally Posted by YasM3

You have a massive misconception on what I like or what you "think" I like. I dont know how many other ways to explain it. I said sub 3000rpms is horrid in the X3M, that is fact.
That doesnt mean I hate the damn thing or I should buy something else. Again, just pointing out and confirming for OPs original question.

With that being said. I own and build/built many many cars of all different calibers and driving styles. Some where it doesnt full spool until 5000 rpms but runs 8s on pump gas and street driven. Some where it makes 700-800ftlbs of TQ @ 2500RPMs immediately when you hit the throttle without any delay.

That doesnt mean I dont like the S58, or need a diesel, or id hate a Porsche or I should buy a Tesla. The last time I am saying it.....

Not to rev u up further, but Dude, how about the part where Alex said being in D2 or D3 gets you going when you're under 3oooRPM?

Are u saying the Car shouldn't be allowed/need to downshift to get moving? If that's the case, then that seems like an arbitrary opinion (which you're entitled to of course). Just use D2/3 and it's all good, no?

Otherwise, yeah Tesla: no gear shifts.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by YasM3

You are literally proving my point here. Look at the sheet. peak TQ not until 4000 RPMS. The area under the curve is terrible. Compared to the M40i, the X3M is making 150ishrwtq LESS @ 2500 RPM. You can FEEL that. So dont try to tell me to buy a Tesla or run it up to redline every time I want to part throttle accelerate.....

Now lets compare, same chassis but in the M40i. Peak TQ @ 2500 rpm, TQ comes on much sooner. This is what I am talking about where the X3M is lacking. The M3/M4 will have the same issues. This is not a power to weight issue.....

Man, look at this terrible power delivery, terrible dip, peak tq at 6000 rpm, piece of shit car, slow like a turtle, can’t accelerate properly from low rpms. Much worse than X3 M40i for sure... it’s the 991 GT3 RS btw.

[Will Pwr]

My opinion is that I think the issue here or rather the debate here really revolves around two interconnected things.... exceptions/sterotypes of an SUV and the F97/F98 being a different approach of a performance SUV.

Stereotypically, an SUV has a lower peak powerband as that tends to align with a vehicle with AWD and a Cd that you can't brag about...hence the mention of the M40i's B58 powerband as a point of reference. Now you throw into the mix the S58 which is a powerhouse that really shines in the mid-to-upper rpm range (100-120 more peak HP than the B58)....and in such a manner that you will walk way from cars that wouldn't expect you to. Historically an engine with such characteristics would be more utilized in a sedan/couple..ala M3/M4. Given this unique combo, which is the F97/F98, it counters the expectations/perceptions of some new/potential owners. Does it make it flawed? or is the flaw in the misconception? Would a bit more torque under 3k be welcomed? Sure...but the differentiation for this is vehicle is the substantially high performance/horsepower characteristics.

Another aspect to consider is the transmission/gearing, its an 8 speed auto (not to mention that it vehicle needs to take in consideration of having an avg MPG that doesn't too negatively impact the cafe standard for BMW LOL). In my opinion and experience, 8 speed autos, regardless of them being performance oriented ZF ones or not, tend to accelerate great but at the same time are not the most quick to react to on/off throttle changes that require abrupt/immediate downshifts....some would describe as throttle lag. Mathematically alone, you have 1-2 more gears than your traditional 3 pedal manual/SMG/DCT trans that would need to row up and down through. Now this doesn't explain the low-rpm range power dip, but it does somewhat for the sluggishness or lag from cruising to power.....and using D2 and D3 helps this without you having to manually stay or cruise in a lower gear.

I'll admit the first time I drove the F97, I didn't know if I liked it or not. It was during an M Tour event 6 months before its' release where I was able to drive the F87 M2C as well. Between the F87 and my F80 that I drove to the event, both being S55 powered and quite a bit lighter in weight, the F97 didn't feel 503hp fast on the STREET....it didn't live up to my expectation of a tire-roasting, low-rpm torque beast. Not until more media testing and earlier owner feedback did it really dawn on me that it really is a beast, but not in the powerband that I was expecting of an SUV. So for me, the flaw was in my initial perception.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by YasM3

I understand your point. The dip you point out is exactly what I am talking about.

However, you are telling me not to compare an S55 as its in a lighter car. I am not comparing total HP and TQ. I am comparing how the power is delivered. Case in point, the dip you describe.

Every other BMW inline turbo 6 aside from the S58 feels way better downlow vs the S58. Its extremely noticeable and the 1st thing I noticed when driving the S58 for the first time. I am not saying the car or engine sucks. I am confirming (back to OPs questions) that below 3000 rpms is horrid. We know above that to redline is great. Thats not the question here, or downshifting to get rpms up or any of that. The question was about sub 3000rpm performance. The S58 at the moment is the only inline turbo 6 to have this characteristic across the whole BMW engine line and that is fact. N54,N55, S55, B58 do not do this

My apologies, I missed this post. I think the bowing of the hp curve is indeed a shortcoming of the S58, as well as the spiky torque curve.

Ideally, I believe most would want a linear hp curve as close to a 45 degree line as possible with spike up top, and a relatively flat torque curve across the range for a turbo car.

Reality, most engines are compromised in some way. My personal experience with the engine line you listed- they are all compromised:

N54 (I had a '07 335i) - torque and hp great until about 1k below redline, then flatlines and dips, which in all honesty you don't even need to shift at redline for that car. Motorsport engine it isn't.

N55 (I had one in an x5 35i) much better than the N54, but engine does not sing up top like most single twin scroll turbo cars in my experience.

S55 ('15 M3 I had)- one of the best turbo engines to me, however, the delivery of power is unbridled and not tuned well to the chassis, which caused more traction issues at launch, spinning the wheels even during higher speeds, requiring a lot more modulating with the throttle. Very enjoyable to drive, but requiring a LOT of attention so the car doesn't kill you.

S58- is amazing up top, and below 2k you can basically start off and keep the engine shifting gears 1-2k rpms fine, but the power dip is there afterwards and you will need to get use to this.

At the end of the day, if you know your engine's weaknesses, you can try to avoid the situation. I absolutely need to have a fun car sing at the top of the rpm range, which is a no compromise thing for me. The X3M is very enjoyable to drive, just avoid rolling races at low rpms and avoid trying to pass in the "dip zone".

With a correct launch, this little SUV is a monster, basically 20 feet separates the 0-60 times between this car vs my 911. Obviously the 911 is a completely different driving experience and one I would never want to give up, its just that enjoyable, but the x3m is damn good fun too.

Here is a dragy of my 911 (3.20 1ft roll out):


Here is a dragy of my x3mc (3.54 1 ft roll out):

[R0ut3r]

Originally Posted by robopp

Your only use case is flooring it from a stop all day long? Gesh!

Only "performance" use case lol. Other times its driving posted speed limit with no drama.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by YasM3

You have a massive misconception on what I like or what you "think" I like. I dont know how many other ways to explain it. I said sub 3000rpms is horrid in the X3M, that is fact.
That doesnt mean I hate the damn thing or I should buy something else. Again, just pointing out and confirming for OPs original question.

With that being said. I own and build/built many many cars of all different calibers and driving styles. Some where it doesnt full spool until 5000 rpms but runs 8s on pump gas and street driven. Some where it makes 700-800ftlbs of TQ @ 2500RPMs immediately when you hit the throttle without any delay.

That doesnt mean I dont like the S58, or need a diesel, or id hate a Porsche or I should buy a Tesla. The last time I am saying it.....

That's your opinion and not fact at all. I don't floor my vehicle from every green light and I think this picks up just fine on the street. The only time I notice it really is flooring the car from a stop without launch control otherwise it's pretty tractable on my commute and "horrible" is a word I've never associated with driving this vehicle. I really think you should look at a diesel powered vehicle or EV as that's the only way you will get the instant torque you crave.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

That's your opinion and not fact at all. I don't floor my vehicle from every green light and I think this picks up just fine on the street. The only time I notice it really is flooring the car from a stop without launch control otherwise it's pretty tractable on my commute and "horrible" is a word I've never associated with driving this vehicle. I really think you should look at a diesel powered vehicle or EV as that's the only way you will get the instant torque you crave.

I guess reading is hard for some of you lol

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by YasM3

I guess reading is hard for some of you lol

No reading is easy. Reading highly emotional posts like yours can be a bit of a chore to get through as I get enough of that from my two boys. We get it that you think sub-3000 RPM is "horrible" just realize that not everyone shares your opinion on this topic. After going from my no torque high RPM fun VTEC days in the 90's to V8 torque in the 00 decade, then DI turbocharged vehicles this decade that have immense midrange power that falls off at the upper range I kind of enjoy an engine like this that keeps making power all the way to redline even if there's a bit of sacrifice at the bottom end. To me that's more of an exciting engine than most engines today where there's no point going over 6k RPM's but that's my opinion and while you don't share that just remember that not everyone shares your opinion as well so stop trying to drive your opinion as fact.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

No reading is easy. Reading highly emotional posts like yours can be a bit of a chore to get through as I get enough of that from my two boys. We get it that you think sub-3000 RPM is "horrible" just realize that not everyone shares your opinion on this topic. After going from my no torque high RPM fun VTEC days in the 90's to V8 torque in the 00 decade, then DI turbocharged vehicles this decade that have immense midrange power that falls off at the upper range I kind of enjoy an engine like this that keeps making power all the way to redline even if there's a bit of sacrifice at the bottom end. To me that's more of an exciting engine than most engines today where there's no point going over 6k RPM's but that's my opinion and while you don't share that just remember that not everyone shares your opinion as well so stop trying to drive your opinion as fact.

Again, its not an opinion.

Read the original posters complaint about lack of TQ sub 3000. Hes complaining about it. Im confirming it. That is all. This has nothing to do with power up top, or WOT from a stop all day at every light, or LC or me hating the car. Simply put, the car lacks in the sub 3000 rpm range and its obvious in part throttle situations. You guys are attacking me and twisting my words like I hate the car which is not my point.