[M5 TT]

Originally Posted by 4151zero

THIS makes me smile! Nothing like Castor oil and clutches, @ 14000 rpms to make the heart beat faster. No torque and a snappy on/off switch version of a power band is plenty to keep the analog feel alive.

Yeah I love it.

[James Cole]

Guys... its nice that some tolerate it while others do not but can this be fixed or reduced with catless downpipe and tune?

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by YasM3

Again, its not an opinion.

Read the original posters complaint about lack of TQ sub 3000. Hes complaining about it. Im confirming it. That is all. This has nothing to do with power up top, or WOT from a stop all day at every light, or LC or me hating the car. Simply put, the car lacks in the sub 3000 rpm range and its obvious in part throttle situations. You guys are attacking me and twisting my words like I hate the car which is not my point.

No you said it's a "fact" that it's "horrid". That's your opinion man. Honestly are you being obtuse on purpose here?

[FSociety]

Originally Posted by James Cole

Guys... its nice that some tolerate it while others do not but can this be fixed or reduced with catless downpipe and tune?

Bootmod3 STG1 93 fixed it for me, after 1,000 miles I wanted more power
So I went with STG1 E30 for about 3,000 miles before going Custom Tune.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by James Cole

Guys... its nice that some tolerate it while others do not but can this be fixed or reduced with catless downpipe and tune?

A tune will add a ton of TQ and HP but it does not bring the power in sooner.

As you can see from this before and after BM3 dyno (this is Fsocietys dyno sheet) You can see both curves follow each other up to about 3200 rpm. BM3 will not improve sub 3000 or bring power on faster.

[allinon72]

I'm not going to get deep in the weeds of this argument, but I will say there is, in my opinion, a great driving dynamic of instant acceleration of the F80 with the DCT. There is no downshift, it just goes. The X3M downshifts, and to its credit it does so quickly, but with the exhaust note it can be a little obnoxious. But again it's a different vehicle and you have to drive it differently.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by allinon72

I'm not going to get deep in the weeds of this argument, but I will say there is, in my opinion, a great driving dynamic of instant acceleration of the F80 with the DCT. There is no downshift, it just goes. The X3M downshifts, and to its credit it does so quickly, but with the exhaust note it can be a little obnoxious. But again it's a different vehicle and you have to drive it differently.

Instant acceleration? My F82 was just spinning the wheels. Instant smoke lol.

[MaxGainz]

I'm not sure I follow all these comments on no acceleration under 3000rpm... 1 weeks with my new x3mc, 1700km already drove around the same great backroad I did in my 10.5@133 RS3. The s58 has plenty of go and quick reaction on D2. I echoes the comment made about a prior poster about impression of what a SUV should "feel" like accelerating.

Ok, the facts are it makes less than the m40i on the lower rev... There is multiple gear on a car, in the correct range it feels exactly the same... You guys remember when you used to drive your manual car and stay in a rpm range when you had the most power and not just up shift to max efficient gear? I think people have strange expectation. "Feeling" fast is different than being fast also.

[spucktacular]

My breakin service didn't add any torque, but I did get my baby back... touched in unwanted places

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by MaxGainz

I'm not sure I follow all these comments on no acceleration under 3000rpm... 1 weeks with my new x3mc, 1700km already drove around the same great backroad I did in my 10.5@133 RS3. The s58 has plenty of go and quick reaction on D2. I echoes the comment made about a prior poster about impression of what a SUV should "feel" like accelerating.

Ok, the facts are it makes less than the m40i on the lower rev... There is multiple gear on a car, in the correct range it feels exactly the same... You guys remember when you used to drive your manual car and stay in a rpm range when you had the most power and not just up shift to max efficient gear? I think people have strange expectation. "Feeling" fast is different than being fast also.

Correct! I think people are becoming lazy and don't want to shift frequently. But even then, why not switch to transmission setting D2 or D3 and let the ZF8 do the quick downshifts for you?

[TX3M]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

Man, look at this terrible power delivery, terrible dip, peak tq at 6000 rpm, piece of shit car, slow like a turtle, can’t accelerate properly from low rpms. Much worse than X3 M40i for sure... it’s the 991 GT3 RS btw.

Isn't that comparing apples to oranges Alex? The 911 GT3 RS is a street-legal race car designed to be driven on a track. Down-low torque is not important on a track as you are not starting from a stand-still and you can keep the engine in the ideal RPM range for torque.

I think most people who buy an X3M are using it as a daily driver, not a dedicated track vehicle. There's a lot of stop and go and low-speed roll-ons in daily driving where I live. Speaking for myself, low-end torque is very important to me for my daily driver and that's why (sadly) I decided not get an X3M Comp after test-driving it, so I agree with the OP.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by TX3M

Isn't that comparing apples to oranges Alex? The 911 GT3 RS is a street-legal race car designed to be driven on a track. Down-low torque is not important on a track as you are not starting from a stand-still and you can keep the engine in the ideal RPM range for torque.

I think most people who buy an X3M are using it as a daily driver, not a dedicated track vehicle. There's a lot of stop and go and low-speed roll-ons in daily driving where I live. Speaking for myself, low-end torque is very important to me for my daily driver and that's why (sadly) I decided not get an X3M Comp after test-driving it, so I agree with the OP.

I agree that GT3 was designed to be driven on a track but fact is that people buy it and use it as their Sunday afternoon car . Besides, I can show you 25 other vehicles that have their torque peaking later than the S58.

However, I completely agree with you that X3M is not a great city car. I don't know why anyone would even consider getting an M car to drive around in a highly populated metropolitan area. These cars are made for Autobahns, highways and twisty country roads.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by ThumperMCS

People just need to re-adjust their driving perspective and style when driving the S58. Once you stop complaining about the lack of low end, and just understand how the power band works...I find zero complaints about it, and the car is simply brutally fast.

I completely agree. I prefer the engine/throttle dynamics of our X3M more than our M340i, although the latter is great too, just falls off at 6k.

If people are revving this engine out properly, shifting to optimize the real power at 4-7k, then the only area that it lacks is launches. So how often are people trying to blitz it off the line and why? If you want stoplight races you either love launch control or you bought the wrong car.

Throttle tip-in is phenomenal and as long as you don't expect immediate bonkers power, that first 3k rpms goes by real quick. If 2nd gear is too sluggish for coming out of corners or slower speed acceleration, shift into 1st. I do this all the time and then have to rapidly get into 2nd before redline. On the freeway, 3rd gear is amazeballs. I'll happily take the high revving power of a race inspired M car over <2.5k RPM torque.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I completely agree. I prefer the engine/throttle dynamics of our X3M more than our M340i, although the latter is great too, just falls off at 6k.

If people are revving this engine out properly, shifting to optimize the real power at 4-7k, then the only area that it lacks is launches. So how often are people trying to blitz it off the line and why? If you want stoplight races you either love launch control or you bought the wrong car.

Throttle tip-in is phenomenal and as long as you don't expect immediate bonkers power, that first 3k rpms goes by real quick. If 2nd gear is too sluggish for coming out of corners or slower speed acceleration, shift into 1st. I do this all the time and then have to rapidly get into 2nd before redline. On the freeway, 3rd gear is amazeballs. I'll happily take the high revving power of a race inspired M car over <2.5k RPM torque.

this is such a wonderfully put together response and I wholeheartedly agree.

[MRichmond]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I completely agree. I prefer the engine/throttle dynamics of our X3M more than our M340i, although the latter is great too, just falls off at 6k.

If people are revving this engine out properly, shifting to optimize the real power at 4-7k, then the only area that it lacks is launches. So how often are people trying to blitz it off the line and why? If you want stoplight races you either love launch control or you bought the wrong car.

Throttle tip-in is phenomenal and as long as you don't expect immediate bonkers power, that first 3k rpms goes by real quick. If 2nd gear is too sluggish for coming out of corners or slower speed acceleration, shift into 1st. I do this all the time and then have to rapidly get into 2nd before redline. On the freeway, 3rd gear is amazeballs. I'll happily take the high revving power of a race inspired M car over <2.5k RPM torque.

Right, hence my earlier comment about the benefit of clearly distinct choices in this market segment. One of the main reasons my finalists were the Jag SVR and MB GLC63 is the instant torque they offer from a standstill and when driving sedately. I had no interest in constantly keeping the motor in higher rpm range just to get that type of instant response, nor in relying on launch control. Because most of the driving I do is commuting, in urban environments, and on highways, that type of responsiveness is very important to me (in addition to a linear power delivery) and the SVR's supercharged V8 is what suited my needs best. Those who want an SUV to drive like a racecar and enjoy keeping the motor at half-to-full boil most of the time, BMW made a good option for you.

[AlexFL]

Originally Posted by MRichmond

Right, hence my earlier comment about the benefit of clearly distinct choices in this market segment. One of the main reasons my finalists were the Jag SVR and MB GLC63 is the instant torque they offer from a standstill and when driving sedately. I had no interest in constantly keeping the motor in higher rpm range just to get that type of instant response, nor in relying on launch control. Because most of the driving I do is commuting, in urban environments, and on highways, that type of responsiveness is very important to me (in addition to a linear power delivery) and the SVR's supercharged V8 is what suited my needs best. Those who want an SUV to drive like a racecar and enjoy keeping the motor at half-to-full boil most of the time, BMW made a good option for you.

Great. We all agree then. Enjoy your SVR! We are definitely enjoying our "racecar SUV"

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by YasM3

I am not talking about lag. I am talking about no power sub 3000 rpms. I am talking about when avoiding downshifts. All of my BMWs except my X3M I can easily accelerate with part throttle @ highway speeds without downshifting and get moving quickly. Along with every other BMW I have driven which is (every single model made) The X3M just does not do that due to lack of low end power and the power band coming on late.

Again, just cruising on the highway trying to to accelerate lets say +10-15mph @ part throttle is much better in every other BMW engine aside from the X3M. I am not talking about downshifting for a full blast, I am not talking about 0-100, I am talking about part throttle acceleration. I am talking about just trying to gain a few mph. I am not comparing actual HP/TQ/Weight. I am comparing the POWERBAND. Drive an X5 with a 4.4 V8 TT, or an X5M(any generation), it will accelerate quickly without the need to downshift at lower RPMs while cruising.

If I am cruising on the highway @ 70mph in 7th-8th gear in my X3M and want to accel to 80mph, its not always necessary to downshift and redline it to get 10mph. My N55s, S55s, and B58s never had to do this (along with every other BMW I have driven). My point is. The S58 sub 3000RPMS SUCKS.

So why can't you downshift? Or if you're that lazy, leave it in auto where it will do it for you with appropriate throttle input? You don't need to redline, just get to >3-4k for "partial throttle" acceleration and then you'll accel 10 mph in no time. It's funny, these are the same complaints a lot of people have about the E9x M3 but if you drive either of these cars correctly, there isn't an issue. If you want to drive it keeping the revs low, the X3M (or E9x M3) is probably not for you.

[pluckydks]

Sorry, late to the party

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by Transfer

So why can't you downshift? Or if you're that lazy, leave it in auto where it will do it for you with appropriate throttle input? You don't need to redline, just get to >3-4k for "partial throttle" acceleration and then you'll accel 10 mph in no time. It's funny, these are the same complaints a lot of people have about the E9x M3 but if you drive either of these cars correctly, there isn't an issue. If you want to drive it keeping the revs low, the X3M (or E9x M3) is probably not for you.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by TX3M

Isn't that comparing apples to oranges Alex? The 911 GT3 RS is a street-legal race car designed to be driven on a track. Down-low torque is not important on a track as you are not starting from a stand-still and you can keep the engine in the ideal RPM range for torque.

I think most people who buy an X3M are using it as a daily driver, not a dedicated track vehicle. There's a lot of stop and go and low-speed roll-ons in daily driving where I live. Speaking for myself, low-end torque is very important to me for my daily driver and that's why (sadly) I decided not get an X3M Comp after test-driving it, so I agree with the OP.

Yes, it is an extremely poor comparison. I am not sure why he brought up this vehicle as a comparison as it has nothing to do with the topic or the point here. Aside from trying to be funny and take a jab at me, but it was a huge swing and a miss.

Im glad to see someone else understands my point here as well as OPs. Its sad to hear that you did not purchase the X3M because of this, but it further proves my point. Aside from this nuance, it is still an amazing vehicle. But I totally get why you did not want to buy one.

[ChipC]

Originally Posted by YasM3

Yes, it is an extremely poor comparison. I am not sure why he brought up this vehicle as a comparison as it has nothing to do with the topic or the point here. Aside from trying to be funny and take a jab at me, but it was a huge swing and a miss.

Im glad to see someone else understands my point here as well as OPs. Its sad to hear that you did not purchase the X3M because of this, but it further proves my point. Aside from this nuance, it is still an amazing vehicle. But I totally get why you did not want to buy one.

Actually, it is a good reference. In the 911 model lineup, you can’t look at the GT3RS as the 911 that handles better. The X3M/X3MC is not the X3 that has more power. To look at either thru that lense as the same vehicle with “more” would miss the point of either vehicle. The risk of this mistake is much higher in the X3M price point than the 911 GT3RS.

I would also suggest the correct way to look at the OP question would not be dyno charts (which occur at WOT). The whole discussion is really around transient engine response in low rpm, part throttle activities. We really should be talking about the electronic throttle mapping curve and torque converter clutch lockup mapping. Our gas pedal is really only a suggestion to the computer as to what we want to do. I think inference to both how much we push down and how rapid the change is. The different settings tweak the algorithm for the defined conditions. I think the torque converter clutch is locked as early as possible and remains locked especially in efficient mode.

Just some thoughts and opinion.

[YasM3]

Originally Posted by ChipC

Actually, it is a good reference. In the 911 model lineup, you can’t look at the GT3RS as the 911 that handles better. The X3M/X3MC is not the X3 that has more power. To look at either thru that lense as the same vehicle with “more” would miss the point of either vehicle. The risk of this mistake is much higher in the X3M price point than the 911 GT3RS.

I would also suggest the correct way to look at the OP question would not be dyno charts (which occur at WOT). The whole discussion is really around transient engine response in low rpm, part throttle activities. We really should be talking about the electronic throttle mapping curve and torque converter clutch lockup mapping. Our gas pedal is really only a suggestion to the computer as to what we want to do. I think inference to both how much we push down and how rapid the change is. The different settings tweak the algorithm for the defined conditions. I think the torque converter clutch is locked as early as possible and remains locked especially in efficient mode.

Just some thoughts and opinion.

Obviously electronics and mapping play a big role. But there are still limitations here.

But the dyno sheet is a good indicator on how it delivers power. As noticed in the power dip below 3000rpms which you also experience in part throttle situations in the same rpm area. This is most likely related to a few things, the major factor the efficiency of the turbos and how/when they spool. Is it a mechanical limitation or software? That I dont know. However, this topic has been brought up to some tuners on this platform even tuned cars exhibit the same power curve, they are not bringing power in sooner than stock, most likely because of cam timing and turbo sizing just does not allow power to come on quicker. One tuner on here also said "if we were able to bring power in quicker, we would put a hole in the block most likely"

Like mentioned. There is usually a trade off. If power gets brought in sooner in the power band, usually it falls off up top. In the case of the S58, power comes in later but doesnt fall off in the upper RPMs.