[RM7]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Non-modern humans walked.

So based on your observations of Germany for the past 6 months you are impressed with the German people's driving IQ. Yet Germany and German car companies are one of the biggest advocates for implementing Level 3+ autonomy. Mercedes just had a big announcement months ago of their willingness and Germany's TUV approval for MB to be liable for accidents under Level at certain speeds (below 35 MPH IIRC) and in the daytime with clear weather.

I've stated many times on E90 Post American requirements for gaining and retaining a driver's license need to be vastly up-leveled. Further, if an individual can't meet higher level minimum standards their right to drive should be restricted. If there is an American problem regarding driver IQ, it's a result of lower expectations from American citizens to allow almost anyone to drive. BUT that level of lower driving IQ, whether in Germany or America is not going to be fixed by automation aids nor autonomous driving. To truly reduce accidents and road deaths through automation/autonomy requires a level of technology infusion that is simply not affordable. The entire trip in an automobile will have to be controlled from start to end, timed and planned with all other automobile trips, similar to how air traffic is controlled. Given the two dimensions and limited space and traffic density and speed of travel, such automation of ground traffic is not financially possible.

The alternative car-to-car avoidance systems just will never be good enough to reduce accidents. The cost effective solution is to vastly increase driver training, continual education, and higher penalties for driving distracted.

AARP would never let legislation pass that increases the requirements for a DL.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by cjb762

What can I say - facts are facts. I’m really sorry I hurt your feelings though.

So 320 million Americans of which at least half drive are all shitty drivers? I can’t even begin to tell you what a remarkably ignorant statement that is. Now someone that owns BMWs is obviously not that ignorant so you’re just trolling. You like insulting Americans. Got it.

I drive no less than 40,000 miles a year for my job. 95% of that is in the southeast. There are tons of rude drivers for sure but they are in the extreme minority. Most people follow the rules and are very polite. I don’t believe for one second the situation is any different in any other country of the world including Germany.

I just thought of this and so I’m editing this post. Those Germans must really hate your sorry butt for your terrible driving skills while you’re there in Germany right? You know being an American an all? I mean obviously you’re a shitty driver also right?

[cjb762]

Originally Posted by Patton250

So 320 million Americans of which at least half drive are all shitty drivers? I can’t even begin to tell you what a remarkably ignorant statement that is. Now someone that owns BMWs is obviously not that ignorant so you’re just trolling. You like insulting Americans. Got it.

You seem to be overly serious and a bit grumpy - are you sure you're not German? (for the sake of clarity, that was a joke. I am not sincerely stereotyping all Germans...)

I drive no less than 40,000 miles a year for my job. 95% of that is in the southeast. There are tons of rude drivers for sure but they are in the extreme minority. Most people follow the rules and are very polite. I don’t believe for one second the situation is any different in any other country of the world including Germany.

I appreciate that your experience is different than mine. I have driven in many different countries, and ridden as a passenger in even more. My personal observation is that driving competence and courtesy vary wildly - not only from country to country, but from state to state.

I don't question that there are many drivers in the States that can obey simple traffic laws, or manage to drive without eating a bowl of cereal (I was no-kidding rear-ended at a stop light in Virginia by a woman distracted by eating cereal while driving). I'm just saying that in my experience, the "minority" that make up the bad drivers in the States is a fairly high percentage of the total drivers. Far too high, IMHO.

I just thought of this and so I’m editing this post. Those Germans must really hate your sorry butt for your terrible driving skills while you’re there in Germany right? You know being an American an all? I mean obviously you’re a shitty driver also right?

I sincerely love a good burn, but I'm not sure that one was worth the edit...

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by cjb762

You seem to be overly serious and a bit grumpy - are you sure you're not German? (for the sake of clarity, that was a joke. I am not sincerely stereotyping all Germans...)



I appreciate that your experience is different than mine. I have driven in many different countries, and ridden as a passenger in even more. My personal observation is that driving competence and courtesy vary wildly - not only from country to country, but from state to state.

I don't question that there are many drivers in the States that can obey simple traffic laws, or manage to drive without eating a bowl of cereal (I was no-kidding rear-ended at a stop light in Virginia by a woman distracted by eating cereal while driving). I'm just saying that in my experience, the "minority" that make up the bad drivers in the States is a fairly high percentage of the total drivers. Far too high, IMHO.



I sincerely love a good burn, but I'm not sure that one was worth the edit...

It was a great burn. I blame that it was first thing in the morning that I didn’t think of it right away. Basically you’re calling yourself a shitty driver because you’re an American. It’s awesome. Of course we all know that you really meant that everybody else all the other 319,999,999 Americans are all shitty drivers and not you. But you didn’t say that.

It seems to me that perception is much different than reality.

https://driving-tests.org/worlds-best-drivers/

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Unfortunately.

How about we mandate all people 65 and over MUST drive a manual transmission car. It will either prevent older folks from driving or make them better drivers. AND it will Save the Manuals!

How about all people under the age of 25. That will save the manuals and make better drivers.
Also, make everyone drive a motorcycle for 5 years before obtaining a car license.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Rutt Ro, this data kinda make the point clear between the world's best drivers (cough-cough... Germany) and the USA...

Exactly. That entire report completely contradicts our friends notion that Germans are better drivers than Americans.

[rotomoto712]

I have to say that German drivers in general are most certainly better trained than most American drivers. But in terms of being better overall drivers...honestly I have seen an equally amount of idiotic driving here in the past six years as I have in the states, and I even lived in Florida once upon a time. Now driving in Italy on the other hand...

[cjb762]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It was a great burn. I blame that it was first thing in the morning that I didn’t think of it right away. Basically you’re calling yourself a shitty driver because you’re an American. It’s awesome. Of course we all know that you really meant that everybody else all the other 319,999,999 Americans are all shitty drivers and not you. But you didn’t say that.

It seems to me that perception is much different than reality.

https://driving-tests.org/worlds-best-drivers/

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Rutt Ro, this data kinda makes the point clear between the world's best drivers (cough-cough... Germany) and the USA...

Regarding the "sick burn" - when you explain it that way, it's honestly even worse. Don't quit your day job Don Rickles.

Regarding the incontrovertible data in the "report" you provided - I'll give you a B for effort, but I'm afraid I can't do better than a D- for reading comprehension.

First, the "data" comes from a survey of "521 Americans and 504 international citizens about their driving perceptions and behaviors." So, at best, it is exactly as authoritative as my personal experiences and perceptions. (i.e. it is not).

Second, and even worse, is it doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Here are some key takeaways:

- Only 14.9% of US respondents thought the US had the best drivers. That means that 85.1% of US respondents thought drivers in other countries are better - including 8.7% who thought drivers in Germany were better.

- When it comes to international respondents, 19.3% thought that Germany had the best drivers, while only 2.3% thought the US did. Rutt ro...

- For worst drivers, a full 16.4% of American respondents thought the US had the worst drivers - that's almost 2% more than thought the US had the best drivers. Pretty telling.

- Finally, nearly 61% of the US respondents perceived themselves as "above average" drivers. Incredible talent pool, or a bunch of people lacking a solid perception of reality? I guess we'll never know.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by cjb762

Regarding the "sick burn" - when you explain it that way, it's honestly even worse. Don't quit your day job Don Rickles.

Regarding the incontrovertible data you provided - I'll give you a B for effort, but I'm afraid I can't do better than a D- for reading comprehension.

First, the "data" comes from a survey of "521 Americans and 504 international citizens about their driving perceptions and behaviors." So, at best, it is exactly as authoritative as my personal experiences and perceptions. (i.e. it is not).

Second, and even worse, is it doesn't say what you seem to think it says. Here are some key takeaways:

- Only 14.9% of US respondents thought the US had the best drivers. That means that 85.1% of US respondents thought drivers in other countries are better - including 8.7% who thought drivers in Germany were better.

- When it comes to international respondents, 19.3% thought that Germany had the best drivers, while only 2.3% thought the US did. Rutt ro...

- For worst drivers, a full 16.4% of American respondents thought the US had the worst drivers - that's almost 2% more than thought the US had the best drivers. Pretty telling.

- Finally, nearly 61% of the US respondents perceived themselves as "above average" drivers. Incredible talent pool, or a bunch of people lacking a solid perception of reality? I guess we'll never know.

Breaks my balls over reading comprehension says the man that missed the most important part of the article and that’s accidents and speeding tickets. Listen bro, I called you out for what you did and that is stereotype Americans which that article and many others, if you Google it prove your inaccurate bias as total BS. Stop moving to other countries and slamming your homeland. If you think you are impressing the locals by slamming your own people you’re wrong. You won’t catch them coming over here and slamming their people. Trust me, I know this. Have a great day.

No need to be a comedian to point out how remarkably hilarious it is when an American, who obviously thinks himself a great driver then goes on to slam Americans in general as being shitty drivers. Did you momentarily forget you’re an American?

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by cjb762

What can I say - facts are facts. I’m really sorry I hurt your feelings though.

I've driven there many times I agree that in Germany the driving standards are far higher than Britain's in any case and it goes to show that imposing painfully slow motorway limits here makes for bad drivers.

[cjb762]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Breaks my balls over reading comprehension says the man that missed the most important part of the article and that’s accidents and speeding tickets. Listen bro, I called you out for what you did and that is stereotype Americans which that article and many others, if you Google it prove your inaccurate bias as total BS. Stop moving to other countries and slamming your homeland. If you think you are impressing the locals by slamming your own people you’re wrong. You won’t catch them coming over here and slamming their people. Trust me, I know this. Have a great day.

No need to be a comedian to point out how remarkably hilarious it is when an American, who obviously thinks himself a great driver then goes on to slam Americans in general as being shitty drivers. Did you momentarily forget you’re an American?

Bro? Seriously?

Also, again, it's not reliable data - it's just 1000 people responding to a survey. It can't be taken as fact.

I can't believe someone else's opinion is really hurting your feelings so badly. Maybe you should talk to someone.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I've driven there many times I agree that in Germany the driving standards are far higher than Britain's in any case and it goes to show that imposing painfully slow motorway limits here makes for bad drivers.

Insurance claims because of accidents and citations disagree with your statement. According to those statistics, you will find better drivers in England and the United States, then you do in Germany. Now, of course, these statistics have nothing to do with each countries, regulations and standards to achieve a drivers license. Sounds like Germany has a laborious process and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. However, it does seem to not have any impact on overall safety.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Insurance claims because of accidents and citations disagree with your statement. According to those statistics, you will find better drivers in England and the United States, then you do in Germany. Now, of course, these statistics have nothing to do with each countries, regulations and standards to achieve a drivers license. Sounds like Germany has a laborious process and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. However, it does seem to not have any impact on overall safety.

I have to disagree with that but I will say that driving in France is far worse than driving in Britain..the smaller and older the car then absolutely crazy. When on holiday in America I found drivers were good generally but didn't drive much in the cities.

[cjb762]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The 1.8 accident stat I presumed was observed traffic data rather than respondent's opinion (it wasn't clear for that specific data). Checking Google, the WHO shows "road deaths" per "1B vehicle kilometers" (I assume that's similar to the NHSTA stat of deaths per 100 million miles - driven). Germany is 4.2 deaths, USA is 7.3, which aligns with your position. It would be nice to know what a road death is (i.e. actual traffic accident death or are pedestrians included). I'd think the US has a higher number of pedestrian deaths since traffic laws in the US give people the right of way over vehicles; I'd bet Germans aren't that stupid.

Good info.

Germany actually gives pedestrians the right of way over vehicles too. Drivers are actually really good about giving way to pedestrians here too, to the point where a lot of times pedestrians don't even look up when entering the crosswalk - which drives me crazy. I know the driver is at fault if they run you over when you step into the crosswalk, but the satisfaction of knowing that means nothing if you are seriously injured or dead.

At least pedestrians here are pretty good about obeying walk/don't walk signs.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The 1.8 accident stat I presumed was observed traffic data rather than respondent's opinion (it wasn't clear for that specific data). Checking Google, the WHO shows "road deaths" per "1B vehicle kilometers" (I assume that's similar to the NHSTA stat of deaths per 100 million miles - driven). Germany is 4.2 deaths, USA is 7.3, which aligns with your position. It would be nice to know what a road death is (i.e. actual traffic accident death or are pedestrians included). I'd think the US has a higher number of pedestrian deaths since traffic laws in the US give people the right of way over vehicles; I'd bet Germans aren't that stupid.

The US is considerably larger than Germany with more dense urban areas and absolutely different driving conditions. That will account for the higher death rate. However, our friends position was “Americans drive shitty.” The stats I provided from an unbiased website show that to be not true. Not to mention stereotypes in general are just silly. And I find drivers in general, and this is my opinion, are biased and arrogant towards their own greatness when they compare themselves to other drivers. That same survey backs up my opinion.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Patton250

The US is considerably larger than Germany with more dense urban areas and absolutely different driving conditions. That will account for the higher death rate. However, our friends position was “Americans drive shitty.” The stats I provided from an unbiased website show that to be not true. Not to mention stereotypes in general are just silly. And I find drivers in general, and this is my opinion, are biased and arrogant towards their own greatness when they compare themselves to other drivers. That same survey backs up my opinion.

80-90% of drivers rate themselves "above average", depending on what study you read.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

80-90% of drivers rate themselves "above average", depending on what study you read.

Exactly. And everybody else sucks