[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

2.5-3.5% difference on HP and torque. 2.25% faster 0-60. By far the best $ / power mod you can do.

The only caveat to using a K&N (or any other oil based filter) is high dust / dirt environments. If I lived on a dirt road; or drove on dirt regularly; I would stay factory.

Anyone that says they feel their vehicle is faster with a replacement filter is lying to themselves. You are sacrificing long term reliability for snake oil at the end of the day as many of these replacement filters do a terrible job at filtering.

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Anyone that says they feel their vehicle is faster with a replacement filter is lying to themselves. You are sacrificing long term reliability for snake oil at the end of the day as many of these replacement filters do a terrible job at filtering.

Respectfully disagree. Dyno and 0-60 times show performance gains. See video in OP.

Where's the evidence to back your claim, "You are sacrificing long term reliability for snake oil at the end of the day as many of these replacement filters do a terrible job at filtering."?

[fricfracfrank]

If you are concerned with the oil on oiled filters, right out of the box I would use compressed air to blow out any excess oil on the filter prior to installing.

[FranzX3M]

The oil sucked in through the PCV system is far more than coming off any oiled filter. I wouldn't worry about the oil on the filter.

[Dandle]

Originally Posted by FranzX3M

The oil sucked in through the PCV system is far more than coming off any oiled filter. I wouldn't worry about the oil on the filter.

That would be put back into the intake after the MAF. The issues with oiled filter panels is that they contaminate the MAF causing faulty readings.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

Respectfully disagree. Dyno and 0-60 times show performance gains. See video in OP.

Where's the evidence to back your claim, "You are sacrificing long term reliability for snake oil at the end of the day as many of these replacement filters do a terrible job at filtering."?

Oh man this is such an old topic that's rarely discussed these days as many people are educated on K&N snake oil. This article is a well known one and they performed legit ISO testing;

https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

Just to reiterate. K&N's aren't bad at filtering air. They are terrible! If you are dead set on it then have at it but the people that really care about engine longevity should stick with the stock filter. BMW knows what it's doing when it designs their engines and that includes their air filters.

[Fast400]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

Respectfully disagree. Dyno and 0-60 times show performance gains. See video in OP.

Where's the evidence to back your claim, "You are sacrificing long term reliability for snake oil at the end of the day as many of these replacement filters do a terrible job at filtering."?

Need some proof...

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Oh man this is such an old topic that's rarely discussed these days as many people are educated on K&N snake oil. This article is a well known one and they performed legit ISO testing;

https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

Just to reiterate. K&N's aren't bad at filtering air. They are terrible! If you are dead set on it then have at it but the people that really care about engine longevity should stick with the stock filter. BMW knows what it's doing when it designs their engines and that includes their air filters.

Useless study. What does it say?

1. K&N doesn't filter particles out of air as well as other tested filters.
2. K&N allows much better airflow than other tested filters.

We already knew these things. What the study doesn't say; and this I believe is the crux of your argument, is that using a K&N air filter will, in anyway, under any conditions, damage your engine. It makes no claim as to what particle size or consistency is required to cause damage. You might want to suggest that any amount of particles is damaging to your engine.. which I say is mostly, hogwash. I suspect the extra HP will stress your engine more than any micro particles. And to note: all filters tested allowed particles to pass.

As I said. If I lived on a dirt road and or was required to regularly drive on dirt roads, I might have a concern. The closest I ever get is driving on my lawn with a trailer.

I have over 25 years and 8 different cars using K&N air filters. I love them. Notice every race car out there uses K&N or competing cloth/oil filter? It's because cloth with oil allow much better airflow. Instead of using dry paper filaments packed so thick and tight particles get caught in the weave - oil is sticky, it doesn't need thickly packed air blocking filaments as particles stick to the oil like glue.

You don't want to believe it; then don't. I like my 25 years of problem free history. I like the improved dyno and 0-60 times. I will continue to buy K&N filters as long as I drive combustion engine cars.

If you want to come here an pee in my Cherios with a "You are sacrificing long term reliability"; at least bring a shred of evidence that the filter actually does that. Your link certainly doesn't support your claim.

As to Oil messing up the MAF. I've seen those posts in the past. Currently run K&N in 4 cars:

• 2008 Lexus IS250
• 2008 BMW M Roadster
• 2011 Infiniti G37Xs
• 2020 BMW X3 M40i

I have carefully inspected the MAF on all of these cars and have found no evidence of oil contamination. There is not that much oil in these filters. I guess, someone could clean their own and re-oil and put on a gross excess of oil. I haven't seen that or know anyone who has seen that.

[JTB392]

Sinbad...just a funny. We had a customer bring his car in for running issues. He cleaned his filter and re-oiled it.....with the WHOLE can of KN oil!!!

[Oldguysrule]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

Useless study. What does it say?

1. K&N doesn't filter particles out of air as well as other tested filters.
2. K&N allows much better airflow than other tested filters.

We already knew these things. What the study doesn't say; and this I believe is the crux of your argument, is that using a K&N air filter will, in anyway, under any conditions, damage your engine. It makes no claim as to what particle size or consistency is required to cause damage. You might want to suggest that any amount of particles is damaging to your engine.. which I say is mostly, hogwash. I suspect the extra HP will stress your engine more than any micro particles. And to note: all filters tested allowed particles to pass.

As I said. If I lived on a dirt road and or was required to regularly drive on dirt roads, I might have a concern. The closest I ever get is driving on my lawn with a trailer.

I have over 25 years and 8 different cars using K&N air filters. I love them. Notice every race car out there uses K&N or competing cloth/oil filter? It's because cloth with oil allow much better airflow. Instead of using dry paper filaments packed so thick and tight particles get caught in the weave - oil is sticky, it doesn't need thickly packed air blocking filaments as particles stick to the oil like glue.

You don't want to believe it; then don't. I like my 25 years of problem free history. I like the improved dyno and 0-60 times. I will continue to buy K&N filters as long as I drive combustion engine cars.

If you want to come here an pee in my Cherios with a "You are sacrificing long term reliability"; at least bring a shred of evidence that the filter actually does that. Your link certainly doesn't support your claim.

As to Oil messing up the MAF. I've seen those posts in the past. Currently run K&N in 4 cars:

• 2008 Lexus IS250
• 2008 BMW M Roadster
• 2011 Infiniti G37Xs
• 2020 BMW X3 M40i

I have carefully inspected the MAF on all of these cars and have found no evidence of oil contamination. There is not that much oil in these filters. I guess, someone could clean their own and re-oil and put on a gross excess of oil. I haven't seen that or know anyone who has seen that.

Do you have dyno figures for all your vehicles? Just curious if manufacturers filters vary in terms of the air they allow to pass? The video showed testing on a Subaru and gains were modest. The assumption is for a vehicle of twice or more the HP % gains would be similar and thus even more HP. But is that a valid assumption? Wouldn't you need to test each manufacturers stock filter first to determine a baseline? Then dyno the car with the K&N filter?

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by Oldguysrule

Do you have dyno figures for all your vehicles? Just curious if manufacturers filters vary in terms of the air they allow to pass? The video showed testing on a Subaru and gains were modest. The assumption is for a vehicle of twice or more the HP % gains would be similar and thus even more HP. But is that a valid assumption? Wouldn't you need to test each manufacturers stock filter first to determine a baseline? Then dyno the car with the K&N filter?

No.. no dyno numbers for my cars. I must rely on other people's numbers. Engineering explained is a pretty solid guy. Every car will vary a bit, but i think the ~3% he measured in the Suby will be a fair percent across cars.. a little more, a little less depending on engine configuration.

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by JTB392

Sinbad...just a funny. We had a customer bring his car in for running issues. He cleaned his filter and re-oiled it.....with the WHOLE can of KN oil!!!

Yeah... ok; then perhaps he needs to worry about his MAF sensor. ;-)

[Oldguysrule]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

No.. no dyno numbers for my cars. I must rely on other people's numbers. Engineering explained is a pretty solid guy. Every car will vary a bit, but i think the ~3% he measured in the Suby will be a fair percent across cars.. a little more, a little less depending on engine configuration.

I think it depends on how restrictive the stock filter is and what the total intake volume limit is as well.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

Useless study. What does it say?

1. K&N doesn't filter particles out of air as well as other tested filters.
2. K&N allows much better airflow than other tested filters.

We already knew these things. What the study doesn't say; and this I believe is the crux of your argument, is that using a K&N air filter will, in anyway, under any conditions, damage your engine. It makes no claim as to what particle size or consistency is required to cause damage. You might want to suggest that any amount of particles is damaging to your engine.. which I say is mostly, hogwash. I suspect the extra HP will stress your engine more than any micro particles. And to note: all filters tested allowed particles to pass.

As I said. If I lived on a dirt road and or was required to regularly drive on dirt roads, I might have a concern. The closest I ever get is driving on my lawn with a trailer.

I have over 25 years and 8 different cars using K&N air filters. I love them. Notice every race car out there uses K&N or competing cloth/oil filter? It's because cloth with oil allow much better airflow. Instead of using dry paper filaments packed so thick and tight particles get caught in the weave - oil is sticky, it doesn't need thickly packed air blocking filaments as particles stick to the oil like glue.

You don't want to believe it; then don't. I like my 25 years of problem free history. I like the improved dyno and 0-60 times. I will continue to buy K&N filters as long as I drive combustion engine cars.

If you want to come here an pee in my Cherios with a "You are sacrificing long term reliability"; at least bring a shred of evidence that the filter actually does that. Your link certainly doesn't support your claim.

As to Oil messing up the MAF. I've seen those posts in the past. Currently run K&N in 4 cars:

• 2008 Lexus IS250
• 2008 BMW M Roadster
• 2011 Infiniti G37Xs
• 2020 BMW X3 M40i

I have carefully inspected the MAF on all of these cars and have found no evidence of oil contamination. There is not that much oil in these filters. I guess, someone could clean their own and re-oil and put on a gross excess of oil. I haven't seen that or know anyone who has seen that.

Useless anecdotal evidence. If filtration didn't matter then every auto manufacturer would be putting K&N filters in their vehicles on the assembly line as they flow more and it's win-win right? Unfortunately filtration matters which is why all automakers use the pleated paper filters.

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Useless anecdotal evidence. If filtration didn't matter then every auto manufacturer would be putting K&N filters in their vehicles on the assembly line as they flow more and it's win-win right?

Why do people insist on believing this? Manufacturers save money everywhere they can. Few dollars her, few dimes there.. times a million adds up.

There are countless items that would cost manufacturers very little to make big differences. Exhaust systems are easy example. What would cost them an extra $20 at time of manufacture (I.e. to go from 2.5 inch to 3 inch exhaust) costs us $1,200 later.

[JTB392]

You think the average car owner, who can't even change the OEM filter can handle a KN filter?? Auto makers have to consider what their customers are capable of. There also is a need for an oil catch can on most engines, especially on forced induction. Now try telling the average Joe consumer they need to inspect/drain it every few thousand miles. Good luck.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by sinbad4

Why do people insist on believing this? Manufacturers save money everywhere they can. Few dollars her, few dimes there.. times a million adds up.

There are countless items that would cost manufacturers very little to make big differences. Exhaust systems are easy example. What would cost them an extra $20 at time of manufacture (I.e. to go from 2.5 inch to 3 inch exhaust) costs us $1,200 later.

I don't think you understand how the manufacturing industry works. The reality is that the engineering departments set the specifications for parts and the procurement departments are tasked with finding the parts that meet the specs at the lowest cost. There is never, ever a case where parts that don't meet the specs are considered. K&N filters don't meet the specs and are never considered regardless of price. I can guarantee you will not find an auto manufacturer that will have low enough filtrations specs that K&N could meet.

[sinbad4]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I don't think you understand how the manufacturing industry works. The reality is that the engineering departments set the specifications for parts and the procurement departments are tasked with finding the parts that meet the specs at the lowest cost. There is never, ever a case where parts that don't meet the specs are considered. K&N filters don't meet the specs and are never considered regardless of price. I can guarantee you will not find an auto manufacturer that will have low enough filtrations specs that K&N could meet.

First, telling someone "I don't think you understand..." is shitty. It's telling someone who disagrees with you they're dumb. I fully understand. Please accept that I simply disagree with you.

Second. I've never said K&N filters particles as well as factory filter. In fact, I've made a an effort to repeatedly say, in my driving environment has very few dirt roads - thus I require less rigorous filtering. Yes, manufactures have to spec their engines to worst conditions, not best and this brings me comfort.

None of what you've said in any of your posts changes anything I've said. If you want ~3% more power and believe a K&N type oil based air filter will filter to your driving needs; then buy the filter. I did.

A point you over look, is that any additional power will stress your engine beyond what the factory has spec'd. Any added stress will shorten your engine's life. Any enhancements you do to your engine, whether a air filter, a bigger turbo, a bigger exhaust, a chip tune, etc will all add some degree of power to your engine - beyond what was designated by the manufacturer. By your logic, anyone who chooses to enhance their engine performance is a fool.

Most of us in these forums are intelligent enough to understand this. Many of us will continue to modify our engines regardless, while our less risk averse friends will not.

[Dandle]

I don't think driving on dusty roads has much to do with it. The dust plume in those situation is behind the wheels and unless your following a vehicle it's unlikely to make it from your wheels fwd to the air intake. If you have a black car you know how dusty any environment is as they constantly need washing and that's just what settles on the car not want the engine is sucking in on a large volume.

Each to their own though, personally I don't think it's worth it.

[Oldguysrule]

I'd like to see 3 Dyno readings on the vehicle in question: 1) stock filter 2) K&N filter 3) no filter - commando. I just wonder what, if any difference might be without touching the exhaust side of the equation.

[animal.style]

Damn. I keep opening this thread whenever there is a new post hoping to see some pics of the black painted struts or the carbon wrapped one. No luck lol

[suby01]

Originally Posted by animal.style

Damn. I keep opening this thread whenever there is a new post hoping to see some pics of the black painted struts or the carbon wrapped one. No luck lol

Lol same. I get excited and its nothing but a measuring contest.