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      01-10-2020, 10:27 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCG View Post
How about in the States?
The link to the other thread was to someone in the states who had done it, so yes.
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      01-10-2020, 10:50 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
Like putting running shoes on a hippo ... a carbon roof on an SUV is hardly going to make a difference to the already high centre of gravity is it now?
Would disagree. It is exactly on the higher platform SUV/SAV where it should have the most relative improvement (certainly when compared with the smaller coupes and sedans where they are already low and therefore have a shorter lever arm length for the moment calculation). And your analogy seems upside down, for running shoes would be the tires? Perhaps a better one would be comparing two camels, one carrying a heavy cargo load and rider, and the other one walking behind without any load up top. Seems intuitively obvious the one without the load would have better maneuverability and stability during fast runs on uneven surfaces. For a more detailed discussion - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1564722

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
Agree a solid roof would be lighter on any car but the M3 was genuinely lighter than its contemporaries all up and the carbon roof was standard to assist in achieving that goal (as well as it being marketing of course - not sure how many mortals could feel the difference the roof makes in the M3).
The X3 M has been unfortunately engineered to be heavier than all its contemporaries. That seems like a massive oversight to me from BMW to enter a category for the first time with a good looking SUV, proper M engineering and end up heavier than nearly everyone - even the Merc GLC63S which is equiped with more cylinders, air suspension and is more plush in general.
All that weight means needing a suspension setup to contain the mass riding up high and rather predictably that has spoiled the ride somewhat. Reducing over 2000 kg's worth of SUV by single digits removing the sunroof... like I said ... hardly worth it in reality but each to their own.
Not trying to dissect your discussion, but the actual DIN numbers don’t support it’s ‘heavier than all its contemporaries’, and the differences that are there are subtle c/w total vehicle weight (less than 150 lbs) - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1624835 . Especially considering the ones that are slightly lower offer far less cargo volume, even to the point of making them unattractive comparisons to the X3M and SVR on that point alone.

And as discussed in the CFRP thread, removing the sunroof is not removing ‘by single digits’ (even if you are discussing in metric terms), and because that weight is at the very top of the vehicle, it adds the most to the upper moment (length of arm x weight). And suspect this is the reason BMW deletes the sunroof when one orders the M Driver's package and increased speed limiter from 155 mph to 177 mph (more stable platform providing a lower CG and SSF to further reduce rollover potential).

One can make the argument that a Driver wouldn’t be able to notice this upper weight difference (and many have written such over the years), but until formal testing is done in SUV/SAV vehicles (and doubt it will be), we won’t know if the CG and SSF (and skidpad and cones times) improve, and if so, to what extent. Personally, that would be interesting to see purely from a Physics/Engineering standpoint, but given that these ‘trucks’ shouldn’t be performance-oriented in the first place, doubt it’ll ever happen.

Apologies to Imran for going off-topic to his thread.
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      01-10-2020, 09:42 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imran@Evolve View Post
Got my hands on a X4M Competition and was really interested to test the engine that will be powering the next generation M3/M4.

Check out the video review below.

X4 and X6, just never did it for me. I understand everyone has an opinion but to me, very ugly.
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      01-11-2020, 05:38 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Well View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
Like putting running shoes on a hippo ... a carbon roof on an SUV is hardly going to make a difference to the already high centre of gravity is it now?
Would disagree. It is exactly on the higher platform SUV/SAV where it should have the most relative improvement (certainly when compared with the smaller coupes and sedans where they are already low and therefore have a shorter lever arm length for the moment calculation). And your analogy seems upside down, for running shoes would be the tires? Perhaps a better one would be comparing two camels, one carrying a heavy cargo load and rider, and the other one walking behind without any load up top. Seems intuitively obvious the one without the load would have better maneuverability and stability during fast runs on uneven surfaces. For a more detailed discussion - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1564722

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
Agree a solid roof would be lighter on any car but the M3 was genuinely lighter than its contemporaries all up and the carbon roof was standard to assist in achieving that goal (as well as it being marketing of course - not sure how many mortals could feel the difference the roof makes in the M3).
The X3 M has been unfortunately engineered to be heavier than all its contemporaries. That seems like a massive oversight to me from BMW to enter a category for the first time with a good looking SUV, proper M engineering and end up heavier than nearly everyone - even the Merc GLC63S which is equiped with more cylinders, air suspension and is more plush in general.
All that weight means needing a suspension setup to contain the mass riding up high and rather predictably that has spoiled the ride somewhat. Reducing over 2000 kg's worth of SUV by single digits removing the sunroof... like I said ... hardly worth it in reality but each to their own.
Not trying to dissect your discussion, but the actual DIN numbers don't support it's 'heavier than all its contemporaries', and the differences that are there are subtle c/w total vehicle weight (less than 150 lbs) - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1624835 . Especially considering the ones that are slightly lower offer far less cargo volume, even to the point of making them unattractive comparisons to the X3M and SVR on that point alone.

And as discussed in the CFRP thread, removing the sunroof is not removing 'by single digits' (even if you are discussing in metric terms), and because that weight is at the very top of the vehicle, it adds the most to the upper moment (length of arm x weight). And suspect this is the reason BMW deletes the sunroof when one orders the M Driver's package and increased speed limiter from 155 mph to 177 mph (more stable platform providing a lower CG and SSF to further reduce rollover potential).

One can make the argument that a Driver wouldn't be able to notice this upper weight difference (and many have written such over the years), but until formal testing is done in SUV/SAV vehicles (and doubt it will be), we won't know if the CG and SSF (and skidpad and cones times) improve, and if so, to what extent. Personally, that would be interesting to see purely from a Physics/Engineering standpoint, but given that these 'trucks' shouldn't be performance-oriented in the first place, doubt it'll ever happen.

Apologies to Imran for going off-topic to his thread.
I guess I wasn't going for the overly literal meaning of the hippo quote - more a hippo is a big animal and giving it performance shoes wouldn't make it go quicker

Point taken though - removing weight from the roof would do something but in the greater scheme of things it's so little gain for, as you say, such a heavy "truck" that is difficult to make performance oriented in the first place.

I guess I should be happy we live in times that you can choose to buy an M car in pretty much any size, format and weight you like!
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      01-11-2020, 08:22 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfurse View Post
I guess I should be happy we live in times that you can choose to buy an M car in pretty much any size, format and weight you like!
Yes, we are all happy to live in such times. Many of us wanted a comparably compact but practical M SUV that feels, handles, and accelerates like a true M car (and X3M does those things really well). Because M drivers sometimes have families with kids. This car also has a nice, comfy cabin with very nice seats and, most importantly, an all-wheel-drive. The latter ensures that I don’t spin the rear wheels at every traffic light (like I did in my M4). Really, we got exactly we wanted.

Last edited by AlexFL; 01-11-2020 at 08:56 AM..
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      01-12-2020, 12:27 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moff View Post
For me the X3M is a M3 Touring. Probably not quite as focused, but once 'on it' in the X3M is epic. You can feel the weight occasionally in the twisties, but keep the engine in Sport+ and using the paddles between 4.5k and 7k rpm it's crazy fast and a huge amount of fun. It's got stopping power too with brakes from the M760i.

I'd also like a B3S Touring, but it was double the price (finance monthlies) in the UK, and the Macan Turbo S was similar.

The X3M is not perfect, but it's a very good car and I've been confused by the reviews - I've driven a stack of M and AMG cars too.
Hate to say it, but the X3M is nothing like an M3, sedan or hypothetical touring. I have driven it, loved it, and when my current X3 is done with, I'll probably buy one as the family car.

But as far as handling, you can feel the weight everywhere except the acceleration. I thought at the time that it is as fast (or faster) in a straight line as my M3 and later test confirmed it. But for braking, handling etc the difference is stark.
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      01-12-2020, 12:30 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
It's been documented ad-nauseum in F80 and other M model forums that all they do for this service is change the engine and differential oil. The DCT models did get launch control enabled on older models, but BMW got rid of this with the X3M/X4Ms. They're blowing smoke...

Run in service doc:
https://testing-public.carmd.com/Tsb...0B00%2003%2015
It's not entirely accurate. The one thing I know for sure was enabled during the break in service on my 2018 M3 ZCP stickshift, were the Rev limiter lights in both the HUD and instrument cluster.
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      01-12-2020, 09:01 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
It's not entirely accurate. The one thing I know for sure was enabled during the break in service on my 2018 M3 ZCP stickshift, were the Rev limiter lights in both the HUD and instrument cluster.
Are you referring to the shift point indicator? If so, it was already enabled but unless you were driving it hard prior to the break in service, you wouldn’t have seen them - https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1444264
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      01-13-2020, 11:43 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexFL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nublu2u View Post
Not just the evo review in the UK, Autocar gave the X4M 3 out 5 stars - which has got to be the lowest score for an M car that I've seen anywhere.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/bmw/x4-m
Oh, look... carmagazine is much more positive about this car.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/bmw/x3-m/
I think the bottom line is that all of these SUVs are polarising. Some of these UK mags are really hating on the X3M whilst others are loving it, and it's the same story for the Merc and Alfa too. One reviewer has the Stelvio as the best SUV ever and another has it as 3 stars. EVO would have you believe the X3M is a dog, Car Magazine would have you believe it's a true drivers car with terrific handling. It's a very odd situation.

CAR have even reviewed it on UK roads.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review...2019-uk-review

Quote:
If there can be such a thing as a true driver’s SUV, this is surely it, and those who get behind the wheel will find it delivers an experience that’s largely free from compromise – albeit one that doesn’t entertain in quite the same way as the competition.
Quote:
Handling is as precise as you’d expect from a car wearing an M badge, with the kind of grip and body control that lets you drive with real conviction. Steering feels direct at all speeds, and while not as engaging on the limit as the rear-biased Stelvio, it delivers a feeling of agility unexpected of a machine this size and weight.
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      01-13-2020, 05:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Are you referring to the shift point indicator? If so, it was already enabled but unless you were driving it hard prior to the break in service, you wouldn’t have seen them - https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1444264
On my 2018 it wasn't. I drove it on the Nurburgring before taking it in for the first service, and the flashing shift indicators weren't there.

It was one of the first things I checked after the break in service...
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      01-19-2020, 02:09 PM   #55
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A flawed and confused car.
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