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      08-02-2019, 08:34 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Wow, that's a lot of arrogance from a so called watch maker. You are welcome to argue with my watch maker but I bet he is way better than you. Sounds like instead of buying into the "Rolex hype", you bought into the "high horology" hype. By your own logic most movements are junk except 150k YLC, 250K VC, and Miyotas.

Actually, I have no idea why you two argue so much. I love all watches, but I believe Patek and Rolex are above everyone else as a whole. No one cares that you think so low about Rolex GMT movements. Not sure what we are arguing cause we like all watches. By the political tone of your post, sounds like there is something missing in your life other than watches.
you are beyond hope....

and miyotas are one of those low end mass produced movements....

again, shows you dont really know what you are talking about.
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      08-05-2019, 07:10 AM   #134
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Your logic, not mine. Ouch
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      08-05-2019, 08:51 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Your logic, not mine. Ouch
no where did i say that low end mass produced movements are great.

nice try though. its obvious you do not know what you are talking about and just want to troll. leave that to the politics section.
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      08-05-2019, 01:15 PM   #136
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I love my submariner and you definitely get a lot more comments about it from non-watch people. When I wear anything else, no one even looks twice.

I like Rolex but they haven't advanced in terms of their movements in a very long time. Even their own Tudor has a newer, more advanced in house movement. I think too many people buy into the Rolex hype and care about appearance over anything technical.
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      08-05-2019, 01:32 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy View Post
no where did i say that low end mass produced movements are great.

nice try though. its obvious you do not know what you are talking about and just want to troll. leave that to the politics section.
Face it, terrible logic.
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      08-05-2019, 02:02 PM   #138
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Face it, terrible logic.
True, on your part.
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      08-05-2019, 07:41 PM   #139
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I love my submariner and you definitely get a lot more comments about it from non-watch people. When I wear anything else, no one even looks twice.

I like Rolex but they haven't advanced in terms of their movements in a very long time. Even their own Tudor has a newer, more advanced in house movement. I think too many people buy into the Rolex hype and care about appearance over anything technical.
buddy, that would be 99% of the watch population... Rolex is smart to enough to cater to that
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      08-05-2019, 08:28 PM   #140
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      08-05-2019, 11:38 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post

I like Rolex but they haven't advanced in terms of their movements in a very long time. Even their own Tudor has a newer, more advanced in house movement. I think too many people buy into the Rolex hype and care about appearance over anything technical.
Sorry, this is where I respectfully disagree with you .Rolex sets its own standard in its own movements ruling out commonplace COSC standards as they introduced +2/-2 accuracy a few years ago besides newer movements come with 70-72 hours power reserve as opposed to 48 hours such as GMT MASTER II,DATE JUST .I am not even talking about revolutionary SKY DWELLER movements
However, I would like to see some freshness in Daytona cases as I think they're too small by today's chronographs .In this respect, 2-3 mm increase in size wouldn't hurt anybody but stoic purists
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      08-06-2019, 04:06 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Nivarox View Post
Sorry, this is where I respectfully disagree with you .Rolex sets its own standard in its own movements ruling out commonplace COSC standards as they introduced +2/-2 accuracy a few years ago besides newer movements come with 70-72 hours power reserve as opposed to 48 hours such as GMT MASTER II,DATE JUST .I am not even talking about revolutionary SKY DWELLER movements
However, I would like to see some freshness in Daytona cases as I think they're too small by today's chronographs .In this respect, 2-3 mm increase in size wouldn't hurt anybody but stoic purists
And when did Rolex introduce these changes and at what cost? The Tissot Powermatic 80 came out over 5 years ago, it is COSC certified and has a 80 hour power reserve. Not to mention the watches cost $1000. IWC, Panerai and others have watches with 7+ days power reserve now. How is 72 hours impressive?

You can name just about any recent Rolex "improvement" and you can see that someone else has already done it and usually cheaper.
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      08-06-2019, 11:40 PM   #143
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And when did Rolex introduce these changes and at what cost? The Tissot Powermatic 80 came out over 5 years ago, it is COSC certified and has a 80 hour power reserve. Not to mention the watches cost $1000. IWC, Panerai and others have watches with 7+ days power reserve now. How is 72 hours impressive?

You can name just about any recent Rolex "improvement" and you can see that someone else has already done it and usually cheaper.
I also forgot to say that Rolex also introduced a Cellini with a moonphase function , a totally novelty as well.
Newer movements introduced 3 years ago as I recall. However, it seems to take time to trickle down to the more budget friendly models as expected .
I like Powermatic ,you can have it less than a grand almost but you will get a Mido , Tissot, Certina may be . Not bad brands but that's it . I have a Longines Hyroconquest with 64 hours power reserve and I bought it instead of those powermatic models and very satisfied with my choice .
Having too much power reserve is not something that to be proud of , accuracy is way more important and Rolex just delivers it with a price of course but compared to other Swiss brands ,I don't think Rolex is overpriced more expensive than Omega but holds value just as good as Patek Philippe
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      08-07-2019, 11:32 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivarox View Post
Having too much power reserve is not something that to be proud of , accuracy is way more important and Rolex just delivers it with a price of course but compared to other Swiss brands ,I don't think Rolex is overpriced more expensive than Omega but holds value just as good as Patek Philippe
Holding value is a function of demand, Rolex's artificial limitations on production and their increasing prices on new watches. It has very little to do with the watch's technical abilities.

I purchased my ceramic Submariner new for $6k 5 years ago. The exact same watch is selling for $10k new now. Nothing has changed besides the price. It's pretty stupid for a mass production watch that is still in production to go up so much in price.
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      08-07-2019, 02:01 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivarox View Post
I also forgot to say that Rolex also introduced a Cellini with a moonphase function , a totally novelty as well.
Newer movements introduced 3 years ago as I recall. However, it seems to take time to trickle down to the more budget friendly models as expected .
I like Powermatic ,you can have it less than a grand almost but you will get a Mido , Tissot, Certina may be . Not bad brands but that's it . I have a Longines Hyroconquest with 64 hours power reserve and I bought it instead of those powermatic models and very satisfied with my choice .
Having too much power reserve is not something that to be proud of , accuracy is way more important and Rolex just delivers it with a price of course but compared to other Swiss brands ,I don't think Rolex is overpriced more expensive than Omega but holds value just as good as Patek Philippe
Just wait till Rolex starts raising all the MSRPs on these watches to more closely reflect what they are selling on the secondary market like many in the industry suspect. They already started raising MSRP on all models, and not one person groaned about it because they are all selling for more on the secondary market. Once this happens, you will see them not hold as much value.

As for movements, yes they have an oddball one here or there (the SD for example. The Cellini, everyone has a moonphase), but for the most part, their movements have not changed. Omega movements surpassed Rolex movements in terms of complexity and quality a decade ago and Rolex is just now starting to respond and get their movements up to par with the rest of the big name, in house movement companies.
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      08-08-2019, 04:48 PM   #146
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I guess ya'll buying Hyundais instead of BMWs. You want that Android Auto and you want it cheaper? Get a Hyundai. Some logic going on here.

Ironic cause this is a forum for BMW enthusiasts.

Again, collecting watches has nothing to do with who came out with the cheapest moonphase, or most complicated movement no one buys. So what Rolex limits supply? Everyone else trying to play that game simply goes out of business. If Longines starts to limit supply then it simply won't sell. Watch collecting is mostly about the design, aesthetics and reliability.
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      08-08-2019, 05:58 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
I guess ya'll buying Hyundais instead of BMWs. You want that Android Auto and you want it cheaper? Get a Hyundai. Some logic going on here.

Ironic cause this is a forum for BMW enthusiasts.

Again, collecting watches has nothing to do with who came out with the cheapest moonphase, or most complicated movement no one buys. So what Rolex limits supply? Everyone else trying to play that game simply goes out of business. If Longines starts to limit supply then it simply won't sell. Watch collecting is mostly about the design, aesthetics and reliability.
no one said to buy a cheaper watch, just that rolex isnt on the same level as patek.

rolex is a mid tier luxury watch. Its like an acura, not a bmw
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      08-08-2019, 07:11 PM   #148
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and typical sell to make room for an actual horological significant piece.
I know its an old post and has nothing to do with the rolex discussion, but I'm curious:
Do you own (or have owned) a piece of an independant watchmaker? (and if so, which one).
And what is your view on those? (independant watchmakers in general)
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      08-08-2019, 07:44 PM   #149
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What do you mean by independent, I have an oris. They are independent.
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      08-09-2019, 11:05 AM   #150
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What do you mean by independent, I have an oris. They are independent.
yeah I know 'independent' is a shitty description I use (and some of the watch world uses).

I mean a watch manufacturer, usually a small company with 5-20 employees where its driven by the founder/fouders or relatives from, where everything is bespoke made, so movement is completely designed inhouse where no 'generic base design' is used so they have absolute freedom on how they want to design and make things. Annual production is very low. Usually way less than 1000 watches. (for example richard mille has I believe an annual production run of 3000-5000 watches so that is already a way larger brand0.

Obviously some of these watches are extremely expensive.
for instance FP Journe makes around 900 watches a year, which would be considered already a very large independant watch maker and I have no idea what those watches cost but I think around 300k for an average model.
But for instance near where I live (1 hour drive or so), you have these guys:
https://www.gronefeld.com/


And they start winning lots of competition prizes lately
They make I believe around 70 watches a year, so extremely exclusive.
I dont know what the exact prices are but I believe, when they started, some models cost around €35k, which is maybe comparable to gold rolex terratory.

And of course there are much more of these kind of highly bespoke, all manual labour watch makers. I have no idea who they are, I just know of the one above because they're relative close to me and I think I once read about them in local news so it grabbed my attention because the way such a company works fascinates me. Not that I'd ever buy a watch that expensive.
And there's another one even more close to me, less than 30min drive:
Christiaan van der Klaauw
http://www.klaauw.com/eng
I think they do around 300 watches/year, and are heavily astronomical influenced.
Started out making bespoke clocks.
Less in my interest designwise but I believe they are highly regarded, with honorairy memberships in swiss independent watchmakers clubs etc. whatever (although I dont know if all their models have bespoke inhouse movements, but they did some strange astronomical complications which put them in the spotlight.)


And I guess (I'm certainly not an expert) there have also been in the 70's/80's and 90's that are not around anymore but have produced astonishing watches back in those days.
I have no idea what the trade in such watches looks like, but I can imagine that when you want to resell such a watch (maybe relatives because they got it out of a heritage and dont really like it/are not into watches etc) it would be quite difficult because it doesn't have the name of patek AP and such (and the name isnt even around anymore....), so the price would drop immensely (100k watch only worth then 15k and such).
Obviously the time that such a watch comes up, not from in the market as an old used piece is of course rare, but if you're professionally into watches I can imagine that you look for such things more closely that the average joe would. The average you and me wouldnt even recognize such a watch or understand if it has horological significance or not.

So I mean those kind of watches.
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      08-13-2019, 09:50 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I know its an old post and has nothing to do with the rolex discussion, but I'm curious:
Do you own (or have owned) a piece of an independant watchmaker? (and if so, which one).
And what is your view on those? (independant watchmakers in general)
I don't because they are out of my price range. Id love to pick up one or 2 but at typically 50k +, not gonna happen.

I do make my own watches, but do so with already produced movements. Designing and making movements is not something i have the skill or tools to do.

The watches from guys that make everything themselves are 100 times better than any Rolex imo
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      08-13-2019, 03:04 PM   #152
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'independent'
Subscribe to this guys channel if you haven't already:



Goes into pretty good detail on all types of watches; mostly mid grade stuff (Daytonas, Royal Oaks, etc.) but also brings up unique and independant brands/models as well.
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      09-08-2019, 12:56 PM   #153
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Quote:
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buddy, that would be 99% of the watch population... Rolex is smart to enough to cater to that
Quote:
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The watches from guys that make everything themselves are 100 times better than any Rolex imo
You can't lump high $$ watches together for a "best", just like you can't say an Audi RS7 is the best. For some dudes it is. For some it isn't.

I didn't buy my M4 Comp because it's the best investment, or because BMW is most well known ... in fact I give zero fucks about either of those things when it comes to my car; I got my car because the M4 Comp Individual is the car I wanted most. There's no best for all, just best for me. An RS7 is a great car, but not for me.

Just like with watches ...

Richard Mille, Hublot, Parmigiani, Patek, and Rolex all win for "investment" brands ... of those, a Rolex steel sports is going to be the easiest to acquire and sell (if you're willing to go grey), especially because China is all over them these days, thus so are speculators. Patek less so, but also in that league so, yes, if you're looking for mass recognition or sales-ease then Rolex and Patek are good buys.

Other brands are good for the art of things - like Lange - and there are all kinds of "high horology" brands like Moser, etc, but for the art of it, I'm a huge fan of the Glashutte region.

So if I was going to drop $90,000 on a watch it would absolutely be an A. Lange und Sohne Datograph:





But then, I would never do that, because I'm not a fancyman. I'm much more the overbuilt German harsh environments guy, so that's why I have the Sinn U1 and U2, both made our of anti-corrosive anti-magnetic, bead-blasted, tegimented, PVD coated German proprietary submarine steel.











Very few even know who Sinn is, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Somebody has to make tools for men - other people can buy Rolex or Patek.
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      09-08-2019, 04:18 PM   #154
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