[Max Well]

As some in our F97/98 sub-Forum know, Jason started a ‘Next Gen 2025 BMW X3 (G45) Spied!’ thread in Jun 2022 at https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1932502 . Some of us have posted there, but after he recently shared new images ( https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=90 ), it seemed reasonable to modify a few of them to be more c/w a G97 and to start a thread here, since our performance interests and comments don’t always align with those owning non-M models.

Here are two images from the recent G45 series which I’ve modified slightly to make them more in line with what the G97 might offer as opposed to the base models (absent the obvious aero differences as we wouldn’t be able to see them anyway with the padding/camo). Hoping we’ll start seeing dedicated G97 images/videos in the near future.

[spucktacular]

interesting nostrils

[thestimp]

I like the flush handles look, this will be a pretty sleek car. Lincoln will be jealous.

[Kevin_The_Clean1]

Looking forward to the next gen X3 M. Maybe this time we'll get carbon-ceramic brakes or make a CF roof. One can only hope. Right?

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by Kevin_The_Clean1

Looking forward to the next gen X3 M. Maybe this time we'll get carbon-ceramic brakes or make a CF roof. One can only hope. Right?

Agree. Back in Jun 2022 I replied to kozzi in the G45 thread with my short wish list for the G97:

Originally Posted by Max Well

kozzi - ...I've been so pleased with the F97 that the G97 X3MC list would be short for me:

1. True slick top - no pano or rails
2. Painted roof and side windshield trim (not the cheap grey rubber/plastic)
3. Lowered 1/2"
4. 265/295 wheels
5. Option to confirm PS4S from factory - even if have to pay more, rather than always playing the tire lottery
6. 40-50HP tune like current St1 offerings
7. Don't go all digital (leave us some buttons & knobs)
8. CFRP option for roof (you knew I'd mention it)

Not much has changed in my list since then, although would agree ceramic brakes should be added. And if M is serious re wt reduction, would think option for light-weight forged wheels should also be there as our Members' list confirms 40-50 lbs unsprung weight reduction is easily attained { ‘F97 X3M / F98 X4M -- Members' Wheel & Tire Combinations and Weights’ at https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1949903 }

9. Ceramic brakes option
10. Light-wt forged wheels

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by thestimp

I like the flush handles look, this will be a pretty sleek car. Lincoln will be jealous.

While they look nice integrated into the door, they're awful for large heavy doors.

[spucktacular]

Are those cameras, and if so, for what?

[thestimp]

Probably just park distance controllers, since the car is electric and high tech they are just 270 degree sensors? My guess...

[Max Well]

Rough idea with a CFRP aero roof.

Width of central depression would be dictated by the aerodynamics of the hood contour and rear spoiler (see 2024 XM where it is wider vs 2024 Porsche Cayenne Coupe Turbo GT where it is thinner).

With its relatively spacious interior and cargo volume and top of class performance, the X3MC draws Enthusiasts with a range of interests and needs. Those with families may option the pano for added light, and roof rails for extended trips where additional cargo can be placed. Outdoor activities may require the addition of aftermarket hitch for trailers or bike racks.

Others with a focus on performance (but still requiring more interior volume, height and cargo capacity than M sedans/coupes allow) are often left with aftermarket solutions to maximize wt reduction and lowered CG. M has provided the ability for pano deletion (which is much appreciated). But the ability to option a CFRP roof would allow further wt reduction and improved CG and no doubt enhance the aerodynamics.

Given the X3MC's remarkable capabilities, a CFRP roof option would further raise the bar for this class...

[stoked335d]

Originally Posted by Max Well

Rough idea with a CFRP aero roof.

Width of central depression would be dictated by the aerodynamics of the hood contour and rear spoiler (see 2024 XM where it is wider vs 2024 Porsche Cayenne Coupe Turbo GT where it is thinner).

With its relatively spacious interior and cargo volume and top of class performance, the X3MC draws Enthusiasts with a range of interests and needs. Those with families may option the pano for added light, and roof rails for extended trips where additional cargo can be placed. Outdoor activities may require the addition of aftermarket hitch for trailers or bike racks.

Others with a focus on performance (but still requiring more interior volume, height and cargo capacity than M sedans/coupes allow) are often left with aftermarket solutions to maximize wt reduction and lowered CG. M has provided the ability for pano deletion (which is much appreciated). But the ability to option a CFRP roof would allow further wt reduction and improved CG and no doubt enhance the aerodynamics.

Given the X3MC's remarkable capabilities, a CFRP roof option would further raise the bar for this class...

I would personally go for the pano roof because gray winter sky for many months is so depressing in the North East.

But you make a great argument for the carbon roof for those who want it.

[Max Well]

Not entirely convinced that the G45 video at the Ring shared 5/24/23 ('G45 X3 M40i spied testing at the Nurburgring', https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2019800) shows only the base and M Performance models. The one with dark roof and license plate 3341 looks too flat and stable in the curves and appears more c/w a G97’s handling IMO. The exhaust also sounds more c/w the S58? Not sure we can make too much of the side mirrors as the F97 also ran with basic side mirrors in its early videos (5/16/2018 - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1496753).

[danniexi]

Originally Posted by Max Well

Given the X3MC's remarkable capabilities, a CFRP roof option would further raise the bar for this class...

looks damn good but it’ll never happen. wishful thinking though.

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by stoked335d

...But you make a great argument for the carbon roof for those who want it.

Originally Posted by danniexi

looks damn good but it’ll never happen. wishful thinking though.

Thanks.

Just seems a lost opportunity for X3MC Enthusiasts (many coming from M sedans/coupes) when M is constrained to old views of what a SAV should offer. The usual response is - ‘if you’re that interested in performance and handling then get a(n) M sedan or coupe’, but that’s meaningless for those needing more interior volume than they provide. Not everyone has the space or finances for a second ‘weekend’ car, and many of us routinely take our X3MCs to the Strip (and some to the track).

M’s marketing suggests a CFRP roof ‘lowers weight and improves performance’ – benefits which would be magnified given the F97’s larger and higher roof. With its lower curb weight c/w BMW’s other M SAV offerings (see attached image), it would seem the ideal SAV platform for a CFRP roof concept trial.

It has proven it can hold its own at Drag Strips and tracks and has a strong performance Enthusiast base actively sharing slips, Dragy and videos [ 'F97 X3M & F98 X4M 1/4 Mile Data' https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444613 ], so it seems unlikely BMW would be taking a major financial risk offering this option in the G97. [And here's a link to track day posts/threads from the F97/98 Forum - https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showp...55&postcount=3 ]

For more background: ‘Request - Carbon Fiber roof Option in X3M/X4M’ at https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1564722

[danniexi]

i dont deny the benefits of a CFRP roof… lower center of gravity, looks, or hell even fuel economy.

but it all comes down to cost and manufacturing. it’d be too expensive with very little benefit from a financial perspective; let alone getting it reliably made in the first place. BMW needs to make the car at certain price point and a CFRP roof will certainly make it that much more expensive (imagine retooling the assembly line just to add a CF roof on such a low volume car) deterring the vast majority of F97 owners from purchasing one. on top of that, i’d bet the vast majority of F97 owners would prefer to have the panaromic sunroof. i’ve YET to see one for sale that actually has a slick top even though it’s easily configurable.

if the CFRP was that important to a certain platform surely they would’ve done it for the G81 M3 touring as well, but clearly BMW knows that it wouldnt be a popular option since these are ROAD going vehicles. most tourings will NEVER see a racetrack… X3M even less so.

a handful of X3M owners in a pool of a couple thousand X3Ms produced is a RIDICULOUSLY small number.

[strohw]

Originally Posted by danniexi

i’d bet the vast majority of F97 owners would prefer to have the panaromic sunroof. i’ve YET to see one for sale that actually has a slick top even though it’s easily configurable.

That's because it use to be a standard option and you had to pay $2500 to get rid of it. On top of that, the package that the delete came with is something nearly no one would option. Now, you have to pay $1350 TO get it. So you'll see a lot more without it.

[Max Well]

*TLDR – see final paragraph*

Originally Posted by danniexi

…it’d be too expensive with very little benefit from a financial perspective…

Maybe. For a global conglomerate with assets Aug ‘23 of $263 Bil, revenues $149 Bil, and profits $19 Bil and ranked 57th in the Fortune 500 [ https://fortune.com/company/bmw-group/global500/ ], suspect BMW also has other priorities they consider when making production decisions. Some models (past and current) haven’t sold as well as others and may have been developed just to make headway into segments or to evaluate concepts for future models. Time will tell for the G09 XM, for example – in what must’ve been a huge investment for its R&D, they may be willing to take a hit on profit to enter that SAV class and develop technologies which may be useful in future models.

Originally Posted by danniexi

… let alone getting it reliably made in the first place. BMW needs to make the car at certain price point and a CFRP roof will certainly make it that much more expensive (imagine retooling the assembly line just to add a CF roof on such a low volume car) deterring the vast majority of F97 owners from purchasing one. …

Maybe. I don’t know the overhead costs for a CFRP roof R&D, but I doubt the process would cause BMW financial stress. With current technology, especially considering their prior extensive experience with CFRP roof production on multiple models, it would be straightforward - CAD the design, analyze and tweak the construct with their in-house CFD software [Computational Fluid Dynamics], output the design to large 3D printing, place printed roof on test G97, perform wind tunnel testing as they do for everything aero they produce (see previous interview with M Engineering and Design – https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...nd-tunnel.html), adjust design until aero is perfected, then program the robotics for installation. The robotic arm doesn’t care if it’s lifting an aluminum or a CFRP roof, and the securing process is just a different fastening method to be programmed. Also, the actual CFRP production process is straightforward and automated:

.

Originally Posted by danniexi

…on top of that, i’d bet the vast majority of F97 owners would prefer to have the panaromic sunroof. i’ve YET to see one for sale that actually has a slick top even though it’s easily configurable. …

Many owners may prefer the pano - I don’t know. But that doesn’t address how many ‘more performance minded’ X3MC owners there are... I’d guess there are ‘a lot’ worldwide (as opposed to just ‘a handful’) who’d jump at the chance to own one with a carbon roof. BMW has produced limited editions of other models (which come with even more R&D requirements), so what financial risk are they taking to produce the G97 with a simple carbon roof option, if not just for a trial run to gauge interest? If it doesn’t sell well just discontinue the option in the future as any Mnfr would do. Supply and demand. Again, with BMW’s financial backing this project is a mere drop in a huge lake for them.

And agree with strohw – only since the LCI F97 has it been possible to ‘easily’ option a pano-less X3MC. When I ordered mine in Summer 2019, I had to get the M Driver’s package to remove it. So, one would need to know the % OWNER-ordered LCI F97s with and without pano for a more accurate idea of its popularity. Its obvious Dealer-ordered units would be ordered with the pano. How many off-the-lot vs custom-order LCI F97s are you seeing up there?

Originally Posted by danniexi

…if the CFRP was that important to a certain platform surely they would’ve done it for the G81 M3 touring as well, but clearly BMW knows that it wouldnt be a popular option…

Possibly, but clearly there are G81 owners that would’ve liked to have had that option as well. Just look at Imran@Evolve and his team at Evolve who had a custom CFRP roof made by Alpha N for their amazing G81 build - https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2046655. The Forum comments were overwhelmingly positive, and I agree with him - the G81 should have come with a CFRP roof option.

Originally Posted by danniexi

… since these are ROAD going vehicles. most tourings will NEVER see a racetrack… X3M even less so. …

The idea that a CFRP roof’s benefits are only noticeable on a track is misleading at best, although it’s frequently cited as justification for why it shouldn’t be offered in Tourings or SAVs. That incorrectly assumes performance and handling in spirited DAILY DRIVING (as many of us responsibly do in Sport and Sport+) wouldn’t improve - even on twisting roads, curves and highway on-ramps for example, or ‘wouldn’t be noticeable’ to the average driver. Incremental improvements in weight and distribution DO make a difference – EVEN in daily driving. Why do some buy fully forged lightweight wheels? No doubt some do just for looks or status (same reason some may get the X3MC which could again be skewing this discussion?), but I can confirm when my BC Forged wheels dropped 44 lbs. unsprung weight my X3MC became much more responsive in daily driving and not just noticeable when I go to the Strip. Those owning the X3MC for looks or status, or always have it loaded with family members and cargo might not realize or care about the benefits of a CFRP roof, which is fine, as that group would likely be oblivious to improved handling anyway.

Originally Posted by danniexi

… a handful of X3M owners in a pool of a couple thousand X3Ms produced is a RIDICULOUSLY small number.

I don’t know the actual numbers and not sure how you arrived at your estimate? Look at the G80 with base, comp, CS and CSL versions. Everyone may not understand the need for a CSL, and not sure how profitable it is, but it serves a portion of that driving base however small it is. Doesn’t matter how many take theirs to the track or just use them as show cars, they don’t need to justify their choice. How many M5CS owners go to the track routinely? Not that many either I suspect, realistically. Yet they have a CFRP roof option even though their roof is smaller and lower than the X3MC’s. As the M5CS costs more the argument would likely be ‘they can afford it’, but lowly X3MC owners can’t, despite the thousands many spend on aftermarket mods (some of which are just for looks or sound)?

So, hopes for BMW allowing a CFRP roof option in the G97 X3MC may indeed end up being just wishful thinking. But I still think that: BMW can afford to R&D a simple CFRP aero roof for the G97; there IS a sizeable F97 Enthusiast base focused on improving performance and handling for even daily driving that would option it if given the chance (and likely others would just for looks); it would not deter buyers less interested in CFRP from purchasing an X3MC ‘family friendly version’ with the heavy pano; and production line robotics can easily be programmed to install the CFRP just as they do for any other similarly equipped M models.

[danniexi]

Originally Posted by Max Well

I don’t know the actual numbers and not sure how you arrived at your estimate? Look at the G80 with base, comp, CS and CSL versions. Everyone may not understand the need for a CSL, and not sure how profitable it is, but it serves a portion of that driving base however small it is. Doesn’t matter how many take theirs to the track or just use them as show cars, they don’t need to justify their choice. How many M5CS owners go to the track routinely? Not that many either I suspect, realistically. Yet they have a CFRP roof option even though their roof is smaller and lower than the X3MC’s. As the M5CS costs more the argument would likely be ‘they can afford it’, but lowly X3MC owners can’t, despite the thousands many spend on aftermarket mods (some of which are just for looks or sound)?

For MY21, BMW X3 produced: 113,831 as opposed to BMW X3M: 4,418
Maybe that number increased for MY22 and beyond, but let’s be honest… that’s VERY LOW numbers compared to the other M sedan/coupe cars. CS/L models all share the same roof anyway so that’s a moot point.

like i said from the beginning, i would LOVE for the X3M to come with a CFRP roof and i dont deny the benefits of having one. yes, BMW can easily tool their production line to introduce it if they wanted to. but BMW are first and foremost, a business. it would make little financial sense to do it just because a ‘couple of enthusiasts’ are clamoring for one…

and yes, i only say ‘a couple’ because the number you refer to ‘performance minded X3M owners’ as being ‘a lot’ is all but anecdotal. the activity in this forum is drier than a nun’s vag and social media is barren of like minded owners imo (though i admit im not the best judge of that).

sorry but 4418 units for a year is a straight up pathetic number; probably same reason why the touring models (G81 Touring especially) was never planned for the states. and i’d sure as hell MUCH prefer a G81 over an F97.

but overall, wishful thinking. if you really want one, we could probably get alpha-n to make one for the F97 and start a group buy. it’d be badass and id rock one for the flex.

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by danniexi

...like i said from the beginning, i would LOVE for the X3M to come with a CFRP roof and i dont deny the benefits of having one. ... but overall, wishful thinking...

Will continue the 'wishful thinking' - but since we really like our X3MCs we'll hold on to them if the G97 doesn't raise the bar

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by danniexi

[… if you really want one, we could probably get alpha-n to make one for the F97 and start a group buy. it’d be badass and id rock one for the flex.

An aftermarket CFRP roof would likely have to be molded from an F97 flat Al roof, as an aero channel would require CFD/wind tunnel analysis for proper aerodynamics. For Imran's G81 it appears they designed their mold from the G80's roof profile.

Still, even the flat version could save ~110 lbs roof weight c/w pano roof (and would look 'badass' ).

[TacosRule!]

Originally Posted by Max Well

*TLDR – see final paragraph*

Also, the actual CFRP production process is straightforward and automated:

.

Here's the 4K version of the video. What I found interesting is that, is the CFRP layer is glued to the top of the AL roof? So where are the weight savings over a non-CFRP roof?

Not talking about the pano glass roof, of course its much lighter than it.

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by saabster2010

Here's the 4K version of the video. What I found interesting is that, is the CFRP layer is glued to the top of the AL roof? So where are the weight savings over a non-CFRP roof? Not talking about the pano glass roof, of course its much lighter than it.

Amazing video, saabster2010 - really appreciate you sharing that. So, no, it's not 'glued to the top of the Al roof'. Since the CFRP is a flexible weave and then has to be impregnated with the resin, it has to have a template or mold on both sides to be compressed to match the desired construct. So what you see is release sprays being applied to the templates so it'll be easier to remove once it is compressed and the resin injected and the temps and pressures raised to cure it. One can see in your video how they carefully show both sides with fiber pattern as it is being removed from the molds.

But to your larger question - what bracing lies underneath the CFRP once installed. Imran@Evolve has the video where they cut away the G81 roof and you can see the bracing left before they install it. I am not an Engineer nor a Physicist so would invite others with more expertise to share improved insight if anything I have indicated is incorrect, but it is so strong and stable that it obviates the need for heavier structural bracing (which is one of its goals).

What is clear - CFRP is an amazing wt-saving material, and in the right settings and with proper implementation can be remarkably successful for energy savings and thereby performance-enhancing in a host of different transportation types.

Thanks again for sharing.

[95wildtt]

Originally Posted by Max Well

What is clear - CFRP is an amazing wt-saving material, and in the right settings and with proper implementation can be remarkably successful for energy savings and thereby performance-enhancing in a host of different transportation types.

Thanks again for sharing.

ie. F1, IMSA and Indy Cars