[TacosRule!]

See VTT when I asked about the noise being reported...

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by TacosRule!

See VTT when I asked about the noise being reported...

I really don't have a dog in the fight on this. I've used Vargas in the past including a turbo upgrade and i have no issue with them. I also feel that the insert is a good cheap alternative that will be effective. BUT, i installed it and without a doubt there is clunking from the driveline on decel and accel on and off the gas along with into gear (the latter of which i could deal with if it was the only issue). Also, there is a probably tolerable whine at 4k rpm on decel that wasn't there prior. Put a new factory bolt in after removing the insert and no noise, all is well. I am certainly not saying the insert is not a good solution, i'm saying it's a personal choice of dealing with the increased NVH...

[TacosRule!]

Originally Posted by Jnat

I really don't have a dog in the fight on this. I've used Vargas in the past including a turbo upgrade and i have no issue with them. I also feel that the insert is a good cheap alternative that will be effective. BUT, i installed it and without a doubt there is clunking from the driveline on decel and accel on and off the gas along with into gear (the latter of which i could deal with if it was the only issue). Also, there is a probably tolerable whine at 4k rpm on decel that wasn't there prior. Put a new factory bolt in after removing the insert and no noise, all is well. I am certainly not saying the insert is not a good solution, i'm saying it's a personal choice of dealing with the increased NVH...

I know, just forwarding what they told me. if it works for you and you like it, more power to you.

[Bimma360]

Originally Posted by TacosRule!

See VTT when I asked about the noise being reported...

Yeah they are full of shit. Haha. I think Vargas has been around for a while. I am sure they produce fine products. No nvh reported hahaha, probably by people with very loud exhausts. If I can barely hear the burbles on my dinan exhaust with the lockdown brace… yeah the brace adds nvh.

[BlownLSX]

If your cars are stock and your doing this mod for “peace of mind “. Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change. I don’t get the “I wanna make it strong but I’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards. So in my professional opinion (yes professional, was a bmw tech for many years and I own a small performance shop) just leave the factory bolt alone if you can’t stand the smallest bit of NVH. For those that are modded. Every mod is give and take. Go in with that mindset and you’ll stop complaining.

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

If your cars are stock and your doing this mod for “peace of mind “. Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change. I don’t get the “I wanna make it strong but I’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards. So in my professional opinion (yes professional, was a bmw tech for many years and I own a small performance shop) just leave the factory bolt alone if you can’t stand the smallest bit of NVH. For those that are modded. Every mod is give and take. Go in with that mindset and you’ll stop complaining.

I think this is probably fair. To be clear, i'm not complaining i'm posting my experience as i actually think the product (vargas insert) is good and i could deal with the diff noise but i couldn't deal with the clunking on and off the gas literally constantly. So i guess consider it a public service announcement and use the information for that reason only.

[Th3Walrus]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

If your cars are stock and your doing this mod for “peace of mind “. Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change. I don’t get the “I wanna make it strong but I’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards. So in my professional opinion (yes professional, was a bmw tech for many years and I own a small performance shop) just leave the factory bolt alone if you can’t stand the smallest bit of NVH. For those that are modded. Every mod is give and take. Go in with that mindset and you’ll stop complaining.

BlownLSX I had asked this earlier in the thread.. do you have to remove any covers/lower anything to replace the bolt?

[M4Lou]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

If your cars are stock and your doing this mod for “peace of mind “. Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change. I don’t get the “I wanna make it strong but I’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards. So in my professional opinion (yes professional, was a bmw tech for many years and I own a small performance shop) just leave the factory bolt alone if you can’t stand the smallest bit of NVH. For those that are modded. Every mod is give and take. Go in with that mindset and you’ll stop complaining.

Just to add to this comment (for those of us who have watched this thread).

What is the real risk here????

Is it mainly w/ a lot of launches/especially modified cars? I don't race my car - but do occasionally get on it to pass on mountain roads, etc.

What is the risk for the rest of us?

[joebie3]

Originally Posted by M4Lou

Just to add to this comment (for those of us who have watched this thread).

What is the real risk here????

Is it mainly w/ a lot of launches/especially modified cars? I don't race my car - but do occasionally get on it to pass on mountain roads, etc.

What is the risk for the rest of us?

The bolt is bending on even stock non-beat cars. So it's something you may almost consider as maintenance at this point.

[TacosRule!]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change.

LOL not its not, not based on the instructions provided with all the kits. Plus I still have the stealership do the oil changes cus of UC+ But to your point, changing the stock bolt yearly sounds like a somewhat logical option, if you ignore the fact that having to do this yearly is by no means rational.

[TacosRule!]

Originally Posted by Th3Walrus

BlownLSX I had asked this earlier in the thread.. do you have to remove any covers/lower anything to replace the bolt?

yes, there are instructions from multiple solutions on this thread

[Th3Walrus]

And I've said this before when you gave the same answer... the kit instructions assume you are also replacing the bushing or putting in inserts, which require removing braces/covers so you can drop the exhaust and lower the diff to provide clearance for the bushing.

I want to hear from someone who has actually just replaced the bolt. One person said on the M40i you don't have to drop/remove anything.

[Bimma360]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

I don’t get the “I wanna make it strong but I’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards.

I disagree. I don't think modding a car has to ALWAYS come with repercussions. I may not have been a tech, but I've been wrenching on my own cars for over 20 years now. I have only taken my cars to a shop 4 times total. I have rebuilt heads, timing belts, serviced transmission, full suspensions, bushings, pulled entire drivetrains, headers/exhausts, and just about everything in between. Paint, sewing, and carbon work as well. The only thing I haven't done is rebuild blocks, rebuild transmissions, and rebuild diffs. I have also over modified cars and learned the hard way about repercussions. There is no reason why a solution/mitigation to this particular bolt issue has to have repercussions.

Yes, I completely agree that adding a solid bushing or a brace and thinking there won't be any NVH is dumb. But the issue here is, some people and even the producer/retailer themselves (VTT) are outright saying that their products add no NVH. And that's not true. I wouldn't even call it "the smallest bit of NVH." I could live with that.

So the discussion in this thread, is to essentially discuss personal and direct experience with the "solutions" that are currently available.

Replacing the stock bolt regularly is fine. That was my initial thought too, but decided to give VTT's brace a shot since the install and removal is a million times easier than any bushing replacement.

Just yesterday, I finished installing Ryan's 14mm Bolt Kit. Whether it's an actual "solution" or just a "mitigation" to the problem is anyone's guess. But the kit comes with a steel sleeve, a 12.9 bolt, and everything has incredibly tight tolerances. As such it takes the bolt movement part out of the equation and adds a stiffer bolt to boot. I honestly can't fathom how this isn't better than stock. And, of course, has ZERO NVH.

[Bimma360]

Originally Posted by Th3Walrus

And I've said this before when you gave the same answer... the kit instructions assume you are also replacing the bushing or putting in inserts, which require removing braces/covers so you can drop the exhaust and lower the diff to provide clearance for the bushing.

I want to hear from someone who has actually just replaced the bolt. One person said on the M40i you don't have to drop/remove anything.

I have a Dinan exhaust, but the only thing I had to remove was the vertical brace. Here is a picture that shows that, with the factory nut off but bolt still in place. My factory bolt was straight as an arrow actually haha.

Also heads up, I needed a breaker bar extension to loosen the nut. I don't know the factory torque value and procedure, but limited in space and laying under the car I could only torque the 12.9 bolt from Ryan's kit to about 115-120, when I wanted to get to 130.

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by Bimma360

I disagree. I don't think modding a car has to ALWAYS come with repercussions. I may not have been a tech, but I've been wrenching on my own cars for over 20 years now. I have only taken my cars to a shop 4 times total. I have rebuilt heads, timing belts, serviced transmission, full suspensions, bushings, pulled entire drivetrains, headers/exhausts, and just about everything in between. Paint, sewing, and carbon work as well. The only thing I haven't done is rebuild blocks, rebuild transmissions, and rebuild diffs. I have also over modified cars and learned the hard way about repercussions. There is no reason why a solution/mitigation to this particular bolt issue has to have repercussions.

Yes, I completely agree that adding a solid bushing or a brace and thinking there won't be any NVH is dumb. But the issue here is, some people and even the producer/retailer themselves (VTT) are outright saying that their products add no NVH. And that's not true. I wouldn't even call it "the smallest bit of NVH." I could live with that.

So the discussion in this thread, is to essentially discuss personal and direct experience with the "solutions" that are currently available.

Replacing the stock bolt regularly is fine. That was my initial thought too, but decided to give VTT's brace a shot since the install and removal is a million times easier than any bushing replacement.

Just yesterday, I finished installing Ryan's 14mm Bolt Kit. Whether it's an actual "solution" or just a "mitigation" to the problem is anyone's guess. But the kit comes with a steel sleeve, a 12.9 bolt, and everything has incredibly tight tolerances. As such it takes the bolt movement part out of the equation and adds a stiffer bolt to boot. I honestly can't fathom how this isn't better than stock. And, of course, has ZERO NVH.

Great write up and well thought out, totally agree.

[BlownLSX]

Originally Posted by Bimma360

I disagree. I don't think modding a car has to ALWAYS come with repercussions. I may not have been a tech, but I've been wrenching on my own cars for over 20 years now. I have only taken my cars to a shop 4 times total. I have rebuilt heads, timing belts, serviced transmission, full suspensions, bushings, pulled entire drivetrains, headers/exhausts, and just about everything in between. Paint, sewing, and carbon work as well. The only thing I haven't done is rebuild blocks, rebuild transmissions, and rebuild diffs. I have also over modified cars and learned the hard way about repercussions. There is no reason why a solution/mitigation to this particular bolt issue has to have repercussions.

Yes, I completely agree that adding a solid bushing or a brace and thinking there won't be any NVH is dumb. But the issue here is, some people and even the producer/retailer themselves (VTT) are outright saying that their products add no NVH. And that's not true. I wouldn't even call it "the smallest bit of NVH." I could live with that.

So the discussion in this thread, is to essentially discuss personal and direct experience with the "solutions" that are currently available.

Replacing the stock bolt regularly is fine. That was my initial thought too, but decided to give VTT's brace a shot since the install and removal is a million times easier than any bushing replacement.

Just yesterday, I finished installing Ryan's 14mm Bolt Kit. Whether it's an actual "solution" or just a "mitigation" to the problem is anyone's guess. But the kit comes with a steel [...]

When you are modifying something that is designed to move and preventing it from moving you will have side effects. While it may not be immediately obvious, somewhere down the road something will come up. There’s going to be a point where the bolt and sleeve upgrade may break the ear off the diff. Who honestly knows tho. You seem to be a DIY type of guy and I can appreciate that. But when you are messing with anything drivetrain to chassis mounted you will always have a give and take. While the upgrades are giving you 12.9 rated bolts. This rating is only for proof, yield and tensil strength. The bigger diameter will be better against bending. It will More than likely bend over time in a oem bushing as the flex will act as a lever. Tbh, the only real solution is the vvt lock down brace. Yes this will add NVH. But I’d rather have the NVH then replace an expensive diff. Just look at every modded hellcat. They all use something similar. Like I said before, everything is give and take.

[Jnat]

Originally Posted by BlownLSX

When you are modifying something that is designed to move and preventing it from moving you will have side effects. While it may not be immediately obvious, somewhere down the road something will come up. There’s going to be a point where the bolt and sleeve upgrade may break the ear off the diff. Who honestly knows tho. You seem to be a DIY type of guy and I can appreciate that. But when you are messing with anything drivetrain to chassis mounted you will always have a give and take. While the upgrades are giving you 12.9 rated bolts. This rating is only for proof, yield and tensil strength. The bigger diameter will be better against bending. It will More than likely bend over time in a oem bushing as the flex will act as a lever. Tbh, the only real solution is the vvt lock down brace. Yes this will add NVH. But I’d rather have the NVH then replace an expensive diff. Just look at every modded hellcat. They all use something similar. Like I said before, everything is give and take.

Truth, can't disagree and this is the whole thing with modifications, ya don't know until ya know... every mod will have an affect and ya won't know until ya know.

[AshtonPJT]

Originally Posted by blownlsx

if your cars are stock and your doing this mod for “peace of mind “. Do yourself a favor and just replace the stock bolt say yearly? It’s simple enough to do when doing a oil change. I don’t get the “i wanna make it strong but i’m not willing to deal with the repercussions”. Seems ass backwards. So in my professional opinion (yes professional, was a bmw tech for many years and i own a small performance shop) just leave the factory bolt alone if you can’t stand the smallest bit of nvh. For those that are modded. Every mod is give and take. Go in with that mindset and you’ll stop complaining.

🙌🏻🙌🏻

[AshtonPJT]

Originally Posted by Th3Walrus

BlownLSX I had asked this earlier in the thread.. do you have to remove any covers/lower anything to replace the bolt?

On my x3m40 I didn’t just reached up there and did it this was to just replace the bolt not adding any parts. Stock exhaust and still had room

[Max Well]

Originally Posted by Th3Walrus

...I want to hear from someone who has actually just replaced the bolt. One person said on the M40i you don't have to drop/remove anything.

Originally Posted by Bimma360

I have a Dinan exhaust, but the only thing I had to remove was the vertical brace. Here is a picture that shows that, with the factory nut off but bolt still in place...

And for those sans pano, it would seem you don't have to remove anything?

[Y0jjimb0]

I have been noticing that people coming from different platforms have different biases on the topic of modification.

For a lot of people from my generation that grew up tuning JDM cars, it was often possible to modify something that only upgraded the vehicle without creating a downside because you were going from a cheap part to an expensive part. The main thing that was impacting the performance was cost.

For older generations that are coming to these vehicles from higher end, but older generation german cars, the limiting factors on performance were durability and comfort, not cost. So you couldn't improve a cars performance much just by adding a more expensive part, the performance was more or less maxed out from the get go. Any increase in performance came at the expensive of the longevity of the part or a change in NVH, etc. Younger generations tuning JDM cars don't inherently view the trade-off that way.

I've come to realize that as you go up the food chain in vehicle cost that the performance left on the table is less, and there are more significant draw backs in turning up the dial.

[TacosRule!]

Originally Posted by Bimma360

I disagree. I don't think modding a car has to ALWAYS come with repercussions. I may not have been a tech, but I've been wrenching on my own cars for over 20 years now. I have only taken my cars to a shop 4 times total. I have rebuilt heads, timing belts, serviced transmission, full suspensions, bushings, pulled entire drivetrains, headers/exhausts, and just about everything in between. Paint, sewing, and carbon work as well. The only thing I haven't done is rebuild blocks, rebuild transmissions, and rebuild diffs. I have also over modified cars and learned the hard way about repercussions. There is no reason why a solution/mitigation to this particular bolt issue has to have repercussions.

Yes, I completely agree that adding a solid bushing or a brace and thinking there won't be any NVH is dumb. But the issue here is, some people and even the producer/retailer themselves (VTT) are outright saying that their products add no NVH. And that's not true. I wouldn't even call it "the smallest bit of NVH." I could live with that.

So the discussion in this thread, is to essentially discuss personal and direct experience with the "solutions" that are currently available.

Replacing the stock bolt regularly is fine. That was my initial thought too, but decided to give VTT's brace a shot since the install and removal is a million times easier than any bushing replacement.

Just yesterday, I finished installing Ryan's 14mm Bolt Kit. Whether it's an actual "solution" or just a "mitigation" to the problem is anyone's guess. But the kit comes with a steel sleeve, a 12.9 bolt, and everything has incredibly tight tolerances. As such it takes the bolt movement part out of the equation and adds a stiffer bolt to boot. I honestly can't fathom how this isn't better than stock. And, of course, has ZERO NVH.

DUUUUUUUUDE! I WANT!!! He's not replying to PMs or messages here. How much was it?