[avi66]

Originally Posted by Mike34532

I Maybe I have a very pessimistic view on BMW servicing and warranty, but I can imagine they wriggle out of any damage claim to the xdrive system if non-star marked tyres were fitted.

I share that view of BMW UK warranty.

In all my time driving, including regular winter trips to the Highlands, and regular use of Snake Pass in winter, I've never changed to winter/all-season tyres, and never had a problem. Generally, winters are mild here relative to other countries, even in remote areas.

I've driven in plenty of snow/ice conditions, and if it's bad I use snow socks, as even winter tyres don't work.

[Silver Lightning]

Changed my 20 inch runflats to Crossclimate 2 SUV almost a year ago.

Perfect combination for the weather here in Belgium.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by stroberaver

I'm not surprised that anyone at BMW UK errs on the side of caution when asked, but wonder if they would soon find they don't have a leg to stand on if a wealthy and pissed-off customers decides to test them through the courts. Unfortunately until then, we don't know, so you pays your money and takes your choice as to whether you think the risk is high or low enough to put non-star-marked tyres on.

It's down to the consumer to prove the tyres didn't cause the issue, rather than BMW proving they did IIRC under UK consumer law.

The consumer just needs to commission a reputable specialist to test the tyres, as would have been done by BMW and provide a report in relation to the tyres and xdrive. I'd imagine that wouldn't be cheap or quick.

If there's finance involved, such as an extended warranty purchase sold under FCA registration, the Financial Ombudsman may be a possibility. This is time-consuming, and easier if for example, a warranty claim is being denied because of some BMW non-approved change to an unrelated system.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by avi66

If there's finance involved, such as an extended warranty purchase sold under FCA registration, the Financial Ombudsman may be a possibility. This is time-consuming, and easier if for example, a warranty claim is being denied because of some BMW non-approved change to an unrelated system.

I took a straight forward BMW extended warranty issue to the Financial Ombudsman, when BMW wouldn't address the issue, or even explain their Terms and Conditions, regarding my faulty part. Lots of bat and ball manoeuvres, but completely wasted my time and effort, as BMW didn't even explain the full or true situation to the FO, put it all in the dealer's court. BMW wiggled out of responsibility.

FO exhausted their investigation, and closed the case, due to BMW's clever reply. I'd would have had to start all over again with the dealer, (where I had started originally), then get them to escalate to BMW.

Left me disgusted with BMW. Wrote them directly with a complaint. They didn't even have the courtesy to reply, even with a reminder they hadn't responded or answered my concerns about ambiguous T&Cs.

Back to xDrive. The key issue is with staggered wheel sets, when we don't specifically know if non approved tyres have tolerances which fit BMW's technical criteria for tyre logic. Some do, some don't.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I took a straight forward BMW extended warranty issue to the Financial Ombudsman, when BMW wouldn't address the issue, or even explain their Terms and Conditions, regarding my faulty part. Lots of bat and ball manoeuvres, but completely wasted my time and effort, as BMW didn't even explain the full or true situation to the FO, put it all in the dealer's court. BMW wiggled out of responsibility.

FO exhausted their investigation, and closed the case, due to BMW's clever reply. I'd would have had to start all over again with the dealer, (where I had started originally), then get them to escalate to BMW.

Left me disgusted with BMW. Wrote them directly with a complaint. They didn't even have the courtesy to reply, even with a reminder they hadn't responded or answered my concerns about ambiguous T&Cs.

Back to xDrive. The key issue is with staggered wheel sets, when we don't specifically know if non approved tyres have tolerances which fit BMW's technical criteria for tyre logic. Some do, some don't.

It gets complicated with an extended warranty, as the dealer is usually selling a third-party insurance product provided by companies like Allianz, although it may use BMW branding, it's not sold by BMW UK directly.

Hence, warranty claims are usually authorised, or not as the case may be, by the insurer, not BMW. Plus, the contract of sale is between you and the seller, typically the dealership legal entity, so again BMW arse Teflon.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by avi66

It gets complicated with an extended warranty, as the dealer is usually selling a third-party insurance product provided by companies like Allianz, although it may use BMW branding, it's not sold by BMW UK directly.

Hence, warranty claims are usually authorised, or not as the case may be, by the insurer, not BMW. Plus, the contract of sale is between you and the seller, typically the dealership legal entity, so again BMW arse Teflon.

I was with BMW when they ran their own extended warranty department. Was cheaper and more efficient. Then the law changed and had to be independent. Became the insured warranty and under the FCA.

My understanding (from experience) there are BMW guys in the insured warranty department, with whom the dealer's warranty guys communicate, for approvals when they need authority. Where they submit cases...

[avi66]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I was with BMW when they ran their own extended warranty department. Was cheaper and more efficient. Then the law changed and had to be independent. Became the insured warranty and under the FCA.

My understanding (from experience) there are BMW guys in the insured warranty department, with whom the dealer's warranty guys communicate, for approvals when they need authority. Where they submit cases...

In the case I read posted on here, the warranty was sold by a BMW dealer as BMW extended warranty under FCA.

The guy had a claim for a catastrophic engine failure denied, because he had fitted a non BMW Approved Ghost immobiliser, which was completely unrelated to the fault. The argument being a non BMW approved modification voids the warranty insurance.

The claim for the engine warranty was denied, and the guy raised a claim via the FCA ombudsman. The party denying the claim, and party subject to the FCA ombudsman ruling, wasn’t BMW but a subsidiary of Allianz.

Found the details, it was back in 2021, and I think it was resolved a year later, although further litigation was planned to recover costs https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...&t=1920550&i=0

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by avi66

In the case I read posted on here, the warranty was sold by a BMW dealer as BMW extended warranty under FCA.

The guy had a claim for a catastrophic engine failure denied, because he had fitted a non BMW Approved Ghost immobiliser, which was completely unrelated to the fault. The argument being a non BMW approved modification voids the warranty insurance.

The current insured warranty offered by BMW...

Your BMW Insured Warranty insurance is underwritten by AWP P&C SA and is administered in the United Kingdom by AWP Assistance UK Ltd (trading as BMW Insured Warranty Services and BMW Roadside Assistance Services).

My case involved FCA communications with AWP P&C SA.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

The current insured warranty offered by BMW...



My case involved FCA communications with AWP P&C SA.

That’s Allianz.

“Commonly known as simply Allianz, Allianz Worldwide Partners or AWP P&C S.A. is the German subsidiary branch of the multinational insurance company.”

BMW Insured Warranty is underwritten by AWP P&C SA and is administered in the UK by AWP Assistance UK Ltd (trading as BMW Insured Warranty Services and BMW Roadside Assistance Services).

Think of it like buying your car insurance via BMW and having a claim. It’s the insurance company providing the cover that processes and approves the claim, not BMW UK.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by stroberaver

It feels pretty clear - what I'm saying is that the terminology and labelling of some tyre classes is different between North America and Europe, so trying to apply North American terminology to discussions about UK/European all-season tyres is confusing and clouding the issue. It's not that one is right and one is wrong, it's just different names for different cultures and use cases.

Yes, we have those tyres you listed. Whilst I've never had any need to fit such tyres myself, my understanding is that over here they're referred to as "UHP" (ultra high performance) all-seasons, as opposed to the full-on all-seasons which is what you guys call all-weathers.

I don't think it's anything to do with marketing departments not being able to keep up with product development - our all-season tyres have been around plenty long enough now - and multi-billion dollar/euro global companies aren't going to spend significant sums on developing and formulating new tyres over a period of years without someone thinking that it might be worth letting the marketing dept know about it. It's just that the same thing is called different things in different markets - it was ever thus.

This is not what is happening and it's not just semantics or different usage by continent. It's important to resolve lest someone buy a mediocre product for winter under the "all season" category, thinking they have something better. As to Marketing Department error, I spent a few decades at an OEM automobile company in both Product Planning and Marketing...not a tire company, but the actual vehicle manufacturer. The number of times we found and had to correct errors of omission and comission due to the outsourced agencies who developed merchandising materials that were sometimes blindly relied upon was disheartening. No reason to think it's different these days. As noted below, the tire companies have not yet joined in consistent language. We have a historical precedent of lax terminology usage in the automotive industry when the OEMs first made up the term "crossover" and the usage of "suv" vs "crossover" was randomly applied by different companies.

As to the tires again...here is the historical list of categories that transcends continents. There are summer vs all season available in a variety of performance categories. There is no such thing as a "full on all season" and we don't call all seasons as all weather. They are different entities which is a recent addition and development to the industry. The CrossClimate 2 was only first introduced as a new level of tire in 2020. Coventional all season tires have been around long before that.

Next, again, is the statement of the novelty of the additional category that fits between all season and winter. These few and more recent products are essentially the idea of an all season tire, but technically enhanced to the degree of obtaining the 3 peak snowflake rating. With the snowflake rating, it's all weather, without it, it's only a temperature-tolerant all season.

This is more a matter of being used to conventional category names and not having discerned the new specific all weather tires bearing the snowflake label than it is one country's language vs. another. This is why the CC2 choice by the OP is so helpful to his use case. It is a new level of performance that wasn't available from the usual all seasons we've know for years and could otherwise be overlooked if not properly highlighted.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by avi66

That’s Allianz.

Appreciate that, but we don't 'contract' with Allianz.

How your policy works
Your policy and confirmation of cover is a contract between you and us. We will pay for any claim you make which is covered by the policy and level of cover chosen that occurs during the period of insurance.

'Us' is described as...

How to contact us regarding your Insured Warranty
If you need to contact us, you should call us on: 0345 641 9790

Alternatively, write to us at:
BMW Insured Warranty Services
PO Box 1852
Croydon
CR9 1PW

'Us' in the T&Cs, "BMW Insured Warranty Services"

Insurance... certainly a black art.

[avi66]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Appreciate that, but we don't 'contract' with Allianz.



'Us' is described as...

How to contact us regarding your Insured Warranty
If you need to contact us, you should call us on: 0345 641 9790

Alternatively, write to us at:
BMW Insured Warranty Services
PO Box 1852
Croydon
CR9 1PW

'Us' in the T&Cs, "BMW Insured Warranty Services"

Insurance... certainly a black art.

As above - BMW Insured Warranty is underwritten by AWP P&C SA and is administered in the UK by AWP Assistance UK Ltd (trading as BMW Insured Warranty Services and BMW Roadside Assistance Services)

It’s still Allianz, and AWP registered UK office is in Croydon

Hence, when you “contract” with “BMW Insured Warranty”, you’re contacting with Allianz etc.

This is an old version, but you get the idea. Notice the section on complaints and who regulates us doesn’t mention BMW UK……

[lfdal54]

Good grief, what a pain in the posterior. I asked Tire Rack about tires affecting my US warranty when I ordered my winter set. They said if Tire Rack guarantees fitment they'll deal with warranty issues. How much I'd want to put that to the test based on my ambient light experience between two BMW dealerships is another matter.

Going back to an earlier post, in the US market at least Subaru used to spec a max of 0.125 inch circumferential difference between all 4 tires. Pretty much if you lost a tire after 2 or 3 thousand miles you would be buying a set of four. That was back when their AWD system was 100% mechanical, i.e. when it was the best of anyone IMO, before they diluted it with electronics.

In a very unpopular viewpoint, I can see wheel spacers invalidating warranties in a heartbeat. Offset load on bearings matters a lot and changing that dynamic really stresses at a minimum the wheel bearings.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Next, again, is the statement of the novelty of the additional category that fits between all season and winter. These few and more recent products are essentially the idea of an all season tire, but technically enhanced to the degree of obtaining the 3 peak snowflake rating. With the snowflake rating, it's all weather, without it, it's only a temperature-tolerant all season.

Here in the UK, both Michelin (Cross Climate) and Goodyear (Vector 4Seasons Gen-3), even with the EU 3PMSF marking, don't use the All Weather description, simply All Season in their blurb. Shame, as they are not marketing them well, even if the two best tyres available for All Weather in the UK.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Here in the UK, both Michelin (Cross Climate) and Goodyear (Vector 4Seasons Gen-3), even with the EU 3PMSF marking, don't use the All Weather description, simply All Season in their blurb. Shame, as they are not marketing them well, even if the two best tyres available for All Weather in the UK.

Exactly the point, thank you. This new type of tire is differentially superior to the "all season" category label. Possibly due to perceived lack of familiarity, fear of confusion, simple resistance to a new "all weather" category name in the marketplace or simply poor internal coordination, the awareness and opportunity are reduced for many would-be buyers who would make the better choice if they only knew.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Exactly the point, thank you. This new type of tire is differentially superior to the "all season" category label. Possibly due to perceived lack of familiarity, fear of confusion, simple resistance to a new "all weather" category name in the marketplace or simply poor internal coordination, the awareness and opportunity are reduced for many would-be buyers who would make the better choice if they only knew.

For me, if I go to an "All Season" tyre, will only be choosing an All Weather spec. I definitely want to have the 3PMSF marking for cold and snow use.

[stroberaver]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

This is not what is happening and it's not just semantics or different usage by continent. It's important to resolve lest someone buy a mediocre product for winter under the "all season" category, thinking they have something better. As to Marketing Department error, I spent a few decades at an OEM automobile company in both Product Planning and Marketing...not a tire company, but the actual vehicle manufacturer. The number of times we found and had to correct errors of omission and comission due to the outsourced agencies who developed merchandising materials that were sometimes blindly relied upon was disheartening. No reason to think it's different these days. As noted below, the tire companies have not yet joined in consistent language. We have a historical precedent of lax terminology usage in the automotive industry when the OEMs first made up the term "crossover" and the usage of "suv" vs "crossover" was randomly applied by different companies.

As to the tires again...here is the historical list of categories that transcends continents. There are summer vs all season available in a variety of performance categories. There is no such thing as a "full on all season" and we don't call all seasons as all weather. They are different entities which is a recent addition and development to the industry. The CrossClimate 2 was only first introduced as a new level of tire in 2020. Coventional all season tires have been around long before that.

Next, again, is the statement of the novelty of the additional category that fits between all season and winter. These few and more recent products are essentially the idea of an all season tire, but technically enhanced to the degree of obtaining the 3 peak snowflake rating. With the snowflake rating, it's all weather, without it, it's only a temperature-tolerant all season.

This is more a matter of being used to conventional category names and not having discerned the new specific all weather tires bearing the snowflake label than it is one country's language vs. another. This is why the CC2 choice by the OP is so helpful to his use case. It is a new level of performance that wasn't available from the usual all seasons we've know for years and could otherwise be overlooked if not properly highlighted.

Yes yes, everything you said is absolutely true - for the US market.

The OP is from the UK. All the subsequent responses and discussions were from UK members, about our all-season tyres. If you go on a tyre site here, either retail or manufacturer, you'll generally find the choices in the filters or drop-downs are "summer", "winter", or "all-season". Tyres are not categorised as "all weather". Your all-weather tyre is our all-season.

But if you don't want to believe me, then maybe listen to a guy who reviews tyres for a living: Winter vs all-season tyres
(and see attachments taken from that video).

Calling them "all-season" tyres in Europe isn't a mistake or a temporal anomaly - it's what they're called here. Nor are they a new type of tyre that suddenly turned up one day and nobody knew what to call them. The Michelin CrossClimate2 was not a new level of tyre that arrived in 2020, mainly because it was, somewhat predictably, preceded by the original Michelin CrossClimate which was unveiled around 2015/2016, I believe.

I'm not disputing the veracity of anything you've said as it applies to the US or North American market. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same as discussing all-season tyres in the UK or Europe.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by stroberaver

Yes yes, everything you said is absolutely true - for the US market.

The OP is from the UK. All the subsequent responses and discussions were from UK members, about our all-season tyres. If you go on a tyre site here, either retail or manufacturer, you'll generally find the choices in the filters or drop-downs are "summer", "winter", or "all-season". Tyres are not categorised as "all weather". Your all-weather tyre is our all-season.

But if you don't want to believe me, then maybe listen to a guy who reviews tyres for a living: Winter vs all-season tyres
(and see attachments taken from that video).

Calling them "all-season" tyres in Europe isn't a mistake or a temporal anomaly - it's what they're called here. Nor are they a new type of tyre that suddenly turned up one day and nobody knew what to call them. The Michelin CrossClimate2 was not a new level of tyre that arrived in 2020, mainly because it was, somewhat predictably, preceded by the original Michelin CrossClimate which was unveiled around 2015/2016, I believe.

I'm not disputing the veracity of anything you've said as it applies to the US or North American market. I'm simply pointing out that it's not the same as discussing all-season tyres in the UK or Europe.

And, I believe you as well and assume all good intent and thank you for the dialogue.

I checked a couple of tires on the UK "all season" list and see it is a mix of those with the 3 Peak Snowflake label and those without (Firestone, for example). Therefore, you are in the same situation as we are linguistically for the general population and as perfectly described by the Discount Tire excerpt I pasted above for the U.S. market. Those who are tire-aware understand the "apples vs oranges" difference of "all season" vs "all weather" (no snowflake vs snowflake label) and those in the general population who don't frequent car forums use layman's general term of "all season" to broadly cover them all resulting in a mix of two different things. This is analogous to many who refer to both a Jeep Wrangler and a Chevy Trax as "SUV". They don't know to think about these topics in such detail but eventually they may with more information. This should evolve over time as knowledge seeps into the general awareness and, as Discount Tire references, all tire companies hopefully and eventually start to converge on a common and meaningful distinction for two different categories.

[Jolbex]

Non* tyres were always rumored to burn the VTG. Due to flattening of the tyre shoulder all the torque goes to the rear wheels during acceleration. The VTG is not designed to withstand 90 or more % of torque distribution to one axle only, causing the lamels/disc to burn, oil to boil...
This was the official explanation (mainly by unofficial channels) of bmw mechanics. Also cross-changing of tyres every 10.Kkm or so was recomended.
Whether newer VTGs are imune to this....i dont know.

[glennbk]

Very interesting topic. How prevalent are All-Season tires in the UK? You'd think they would be perfect for Britain's temperate climate.
As for Extended Warranties (aka Vehicle Service Contracts), whom underwrites BMW USA plans?

[avi66]

Originally Posted by glennbk

Very interesting topic. How prevalent are All-Season tires in the UK? You'd think they would be perfect for Britain's temperate climate.
As for Extended Warranties (aka Vehicle Service Contracts), whom underwrites BMW USA plans?

I read an article that suggested an estimated 3% of UK car owners use winter tyres, but not sure about all season.

The issue for BMW UK drivers is * marked options for OE wheel sizes, and I’d imagine it’s a tiny % that would change wheel size and tyre for winter.

In decades or driving all over the UK including the Highlands in winter, I’ve never used anything but the stock tyres without incident.

[Keefy]

Originally Posted by avi66

I read an article that suggested an estimated 3% of UK car owners use winter tyres, but not sure about all season.

The issue for BMW UK drivers is * marked options for OE wheel sizes, and I’d imagine it’s a tiny % that would change wheel size and tyre for winter.

In decades or driving all over the UK including the Highlands in winter, I’ve never used anything but the stock tyres without incident.

This winter will be the first time that I'll have switched to a dedicated winter tyre and the only reason I'm doing that, is the fact that I've spent so much money on a car.

That in itself is not a very good reason and I realise that but for me its not much of an outlay in terms of cost, than sticking to dedicated summer tyre and having an accident, which I've came very close to in a number of occasions because I've lost control of the vehicle simply because I've had summer tyres on in snowy conditions. Plus my daughter borrows my X3 from time to time so I'd rather be over cautious than not.

Now that I've spent the money on extra wheels, the costs will be simply down to tyres, which a set a winters should last at least 2 seasons.

But I agree, the vast majority of UK drivers won't require dedicated winters but they certainly have their place in the market and make a noted difference to driving in harsh, snow conditions.