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      11-30-2017, 08:02 AM   #1
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F97 X3M & F98 X4M 1/4 Mile Data

Edit 9 Mar 2022 1254PM - I've amended this OP to provide a link to the current All Class Leaderboards for the F97/98. The intent is to have one location easily referenced for those not interested in searching through all pages chronologically. The description of that post, #386 [ https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=386 ] reads:

***F97 X3M & F98 X4M 1/4 Mile Class Leader Boards - will be edited to maintain currency as new submissions provided and referenced in the OP to aid locating***

**Edit 4 Apr 2022 545PM** - I added the 'Comparative Analysis of Dragy vs Formal Slip Results at Gainesville Raceway', post #387 https://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=387

Original post #1 from 30 Nov 2017 continues below:

Here are the simulation runs for the X3M at 460 HP and 490 HP with the other numbers as discussed in the thread by beammeupscottie, 'X3M V8' [ http://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1434391 ]. As with the other runs it has difficulty handling the first 2 sec or so because of the complex friction variables which come into play at takeoff (sub-4 is likely), but should be reasonably consistent at the higher speeds.
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Last edited by Max Well; 04-05-2022 at 07:49 AM.. Reason: Added link to the Dragy Comparative Analysis in post #387
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      11-30-2017, 08:33 AM   #2
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XC60 T6 Momentum times seem slow, MT had the heavier Inscription at 6.6s.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/volvo...t-test-review/
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      11-30-2017, 01:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
XC60 T6 Momentum times seem slow, MT had the heavier Inscription at 6.6s. http://www.motortrend.com/cars/volvo...t-test-review/
Thanks for bringing that up ND40oz - I tried to use Mnfr's numbers but couldn't find 0-60 times on Volvo's website. Went ahead and added the T8 and used more recent MT data from 20 Nov 2017. Updated data attached above.
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      12-01-2017, 01:40 PM   #4
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Just had a chance to read through this Max Well...well done sir. Your data input on 0-60 times is consistent across the board. Hopefully as more of these vehicles are tested you could update the spreadsheet.

As a suggestion, it would be interesting to add the following vehicles as they fall under simular size and class.

Mercedes GLC AMG 63 S
Alfa Romeo Stelvio QV
Porche Macan Turbo (non-PP)
Maserati Levante S
BMW X4 M40i
Jeep GC SRT
Jeep GC Trackhawk

As a side note, I am a little disappointed that BMW did not up the HP on the X3 M40i like they will on the upcoming M340i to @380HP. That would have put BMW way ahead in this class. Regardless, the X3M looks to be the real deal as it approaches 500HP.
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      12-01-2017, 03:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
Just had a chance to read through this Max Well...well done sir. Your data input on 0-60 times is consistent across the board. Hopefully as more of these vehicles are tested you could update the spreadsheet. As a suggestion, it would be interesting to add the following vehicles as they fall under simular size and class...

As a side note, I am a little disappointed that BMW did not up the HP on the X3 M40i like they will on the upcoming M340i to @380HP. That would have put BMW way ahead in this class. Regardless, the X3M looks to be the real deal as it approaches 500HP.
Thank you for the kind words, kozzi. I'll work on adding the vehicles you mention and add to the Wt/HP spreadsheet. And regarding the X3 M40i HP, if it is the same engine and just a matter of tweaking, is that something they can modify fairly easily in an LCI version? They may be waiting to get the X3M out and possibly still deciding on its HP, or do you think it is already set for the M?
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      12-02-2017, 10:47 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Max Well View Post
Thank you for the kind words, kozzi. I'll work on adding the vehicles you mention and add to the Wt/HP spreadsheet. And regarding the X3 M40i HP, if it is the same engine and just a matter of tweaking, is that something they can modify fairly easily in an LCI version? They may be waiting to get the X3M out and possibly still deciding on its HP, or do you think it is already set for the M?
I don't think it is yet set in stone for the X3M. Just by looking at your charts, you can easily see why the upcoming S58 with close to 500HP is what it will take to lead the pack. 430HP is just not going to cut it, even with the weight savings. The obvious exception would be the Jeep GC Trackhawk with 700HP but that is in X5M territory. The Stelvio QV is Macan size and when they can hold 5 adults and 5 suitcases, they can give me a call and sit in this class...IMO.

As far as the LCI is concerned, BMW always seems to play games with their internal HP outputs so they do not disturb the performance hierarchy set by price point. Their philosophy is that there is no way you can have an X3M that is faster and outperforms an X5M, even if it's on it's last year of production before the new CLAR version debuts. This holds true across the entire line from the 1 series-6 series and the X variants from X1-X6. It is frustrating to watch BMW not unleash her full performance potential across all lines.

I am looking forward to keeping an eye on this thread and your analysis. Here's to hoping BMW gives us 500HP in the X3M.
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      12-02-2017, 04:00 PM   #7
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Updated Performance SAV Compilation Tables

Updated in the 1st post - now includes the additional SAVs kozzi requested. Despite trying I've been unable to find the Cds for MB's AMG GLC models, nor the exterior dimensions of it's 63 series models, nor Qtr mile times for those either. Also couldn't find verifiable Qtr mile times of the X6 50i or Stelvio Quadrifoglia.

I've done 2 filter sorts - one by 0-60mph times and the more important one (IMHO), by Wt/HP. Unless something is off by frontal surface area (A) and/or transmission sluggishness/tires the Wt/HP ratio appears to predict the 0-60 times pretty well as one would expect (which is why I think the X3M at 490HP should certainly come in under 4.0 sec, and which is why BMW may end up countering the 63S preemptively by aiming for that). At this lower speed Cd probably doesn't enter significantly into the equation.

Given my interest in aerodynamic efficiency, I also want to run each of these in the HP vs Speed simulation to see what HP is required to maintain a constant speed at 140mph, which is where a major separation between all of these should become apparent. It is one thing to use brute force (high HP) to push a vehicle through the air (see Jeep), and another to have a more efficient (in frontal area and Cd) slip through easier (see many of the models). But I need the width x ht of the MBs and their Cds if those are to be included.

I'll also post the two tables on the X3 M40i forum as it might be seen by more folks who can provide the missing information.
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      12-03-2017, 08:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Well View Post
Thank you for the kind words, kozzi. I'll work on adding the vehicles you mention and add to the Wt/HP spreadsheet. And regarding the X3 M40i HP, if it is the same engine and just a matter of tweaking, is that something they can modify fairly easily in an LCI version? They may be waiting to get the X3M out and possibly still deciding on its HP, or do you think it is already set for the M?
I don't think it is yet set in stone for the X3M. Just by looking at your charts, you can easily see why the upcoming S58 with close to 500HP is what it will take to lead the pack. 430HP is just not going to cut it, even with the weight savings. The obvious exception would be the Jeep GC Trackhawk with 700HP but that is in X5M territory. The Stelvio QV is Macan size and when they can hold 5 adults and 5 suitcases, they can give me a call and sit in this class...IMO.

As far as the LCI is concerned, BMW always seems to play games with their internal HP outputs so they do not disturb the performance hierarchy set by price point. Their philosophy is that there is no way you can have an X3M that is faster and outperforms an X5M, even if it's on it's last year of production before the new CLAR version debuts. This holds true across the entire line from the 1 series-6 series and the X variants from X1-X6. It is frustrating to watch BMW not unleash her full performance potential across all lines.

I am looking forward to keeping an eye on this thread and your analysis. Here's to hoping BMW gives us 500HP in the X3M.
If this were true then why did BMW allow the F80 M3 to be faster than the F10 M5?
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      12-03-2017, 12:49 PM   #9
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If this were true then why did BMW allow the F80 M3 to be faster than the F10 M5?
This was for the M5 back in 2012.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/m...3-bmw-m5-test/

"...60 mph in 3.7 seconds and gets through the quarter in 11.9 seconds at 120.3 mph."

This was for the F80 M3 back in 2015.
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/bmw/m...ive-road-trip/

"...we recorded 0-60 mph acceleration of 3.8 seconds (0.4 sec faster than our 2008 long-term M3) and a quarter-mile run in 12.1 seconds at 117.8 mph (0.6 sec and 7.2 mph faster)."

Can you find a test where the M3 breaks 3.7s? Maybe, but I haven't seen one. Can you find an F10 M5 slower? Sure. The point I was trying to make is that BMW tends to stick to performance hierarchy relative to price point.

Imagine the tears that would flow if BMW unleashed holy hell on the M2 and made it much faster than an M4. Would it take much? Maybe to 400HP. Imagine 455HP? Never going to happen is my point. Just like they will not let an X3M outperform an X5M.
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      12-03-2017, 11:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kozzi View Post
The point I was trying to make is that BMW tends to stick to performance hierarchy relative to price point.
BMWs published figures used for marketing purposes were 4.4s for F10 (0-62) and 4.1s for F80 (0-62 DCT). I get your point that it tends to be the case but its not law by any means that the X3M cannot be faster than its big bro that is heavier and more luxury oriented
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      12-04-2017, 11:33 AM   #11
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I see BMW's published figures but their performance numbers and engine power is almost always underrated. I wonder how many sales a more powerful X3M would cannibalize from the X5M.
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      12-06-2017, 06:53 AM   #12
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Found the AMG GLC 63 dimensions, so now just lacking the Cds for them and a few 1/4 mile times and chart will be complete. Also ran the HP-Speed simulation to see what HP is required to run at 140mph to gauge the various design aerodynamics and that has its own chart as well. Not surprisingly the top SAVs in that category have the lowest Cds.

It seems the M series usually have a higher Cd than their lesser-powered siblings, possibly from all of the air and cooling vents needed which no doubt increase the drag? One way to improve such might be air suspension which can lower at high speed. The Levante S has such, and I wonder if that is what allows it to have a Cd 0.02 less than the smaller frontal A(rea) X3 M40i. Will be interesting to see what Cd the X3M's design produces.
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      12-06-2017, 12:28 PM   #13
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Have now also added the Lamborghini Urus, Bentley Bentayga, and the two new Porsche Cayenne (S and Turbo) models, as requested by kozzi and Gudus on the G01 X3 forum.
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      12-07-2017, 07:26 AM   #14
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Doubt many in the 1980s-90s could have forecasted the current explosive growth in the SAV market, and Mnfrs are now investing heavily in this segment. If BMW doesn't have preconceived ideas as to how they select engine power for their model lines (such as not allowing a lower series model to have more performance than an upper series), then they will give the X3M a real chance to compete even in the upper echelon of this category.

If they allow the X3M to produce 490HP, that will place their 'Wt/HP' in the top four of all of these 27 performance models. And comparing the 0-60 times with the Wt/HP numbers, no doubt it will easily hit the sub-4.0 range. And if they can improve the Cd even further (? air suspension and lowering at speed), it'll be one of the elite, no doubt. Will be interesting to see how they position it.
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      12-07-2017, 01:47 PM   #15
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Plot of Wt/HP vs 0-60 times

No doubt the X3M will easily be in the 3.6-3.7 sec range if it arrives with 490HP and a similar weight as the current X3 M40i.
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Last edited by Max Well; 12-22-2017 at 05:22 AM.. Reason: Updated the graph
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      12-07-2017, 08:12 PM   #16
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No doubt the X3M will easily be in the 3.6-3.7 sec range if it arrives with 490HP and a similar weight as the current X3 M40i.
An S58 rated at @485HP that actually puts out @500HP would be a big win.

Hearing HP numbers as low as 420HP just hurts my feelings.
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      12-08-2017, 09:07 AM   #17
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An S58 rated at @485HP that actually puts out @500HP would be a big win. Hearing HP numbers as low as 420HP just hurts my feelings.
After analyzing these Performance SAV numbers I can't see how BMW would introduce the X3M with HP less than ~490. The competition in this segment is already intense and only going to increase, and rather quickly I suspect as Mnfrs keep raising the bar.

Aside from luxury and design which are inherent in most current gen models and/or come down to personal taste, performance and cargo/utility are important factors when choosing a Performance SAV. Price is a consideration but that is clearer to understand between the offerings. Fuel economy is relevant but at these HP ratings, combined mileage probably wouldn't sway one over another (unless hybrid/electric come into the equation).

It seemed a "Performance SAV Index" using Wt/HP multiplied by 0-60 time (to account for performance) then divided by cargo volume would yield a number which identifies maximum performance combined with cargo load (low number better). So I have now included that as a column along with cargo volume and provided sorts based on those as well. I also changed the X3M's est 0-60 times after reviewing the HP/Wt vs 0-60 time charts.

Last edited by Max Well; 12-08-2017 at 09:30 AM..
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      12-08-2017, 11:28 AM   #18
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After analyzing these Performance SAV numbers I can't see how BMW would introduce the X3M with HP less than ~490. The competition in this segment is already intense and only going to increase, and rather quickly I suspect as Mnfrs keep raising the bar.
...
^This right here. As close to 500HP as possible. Lower the power output too much (shaving a 100lbs in weight won't cut it either) and the X3M places too low compared to it's competitors and will not be as special as it should. In less then a year, this class will be full of SAVs that push the performance/utility envelope. I think BMW has a chance to really make the X3M shine. It doesn't have to be the fastest 0-60 but for an AWD performance SAV, it should not be embarrassed.

The 2019 X5M (CLAR platform) will be 600+HP and will probably hit 60MPH in 3.5s. You can argue that the X5M is one of the best SAVs in it's class with many head-to-head match-ups putting it over the Cayenne Turbo. BMW should treat the X3M no different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Well View Post
...
It seemed a "Performance SAV Index" using Wt/HP multiplied by 0-60 time (to account for performance) then divided by cargo volume would yield a number which identifies maximum performance combined with cargo load (low number better). So I have now included that as a column along with cargo volume and provided sorts based on those as well. I also changed the X3M's est 0-60 times after reviewing the HP/Wt vs 0-60 time charts.
Performance/utility is where SAV enthusiasts are today. This additional chart weighing in the utility aspect is more than appropriate. Look how well (hopefully) the X3M sits...best in class!

Yes, SAV owners can be performance enthusiasts too and not have to resort to boring wagons, bloated SUVs and mini-vans. Good job sir.
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      12-08-2017, 03:44 PM   #19
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I agree, and what will begin separating the elite even further in the future I think, is when they can provide the performance and the cargo room yet still tweak the Cd even lower. That is when racing design and engineering will be put to the test in this SAV category.
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      12-10-2017, 08:26 AM   #20
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I also wanted a way to showcase Mnfrs' methods for improving aerodynamics. It is one thing to load a large platform with a huge HP engine and get great 0-60 times and good cargo room. Just as it is with making a(n) SAV more aerodynamic by removing cargo room. Both produce a good result for some areas but at a sacrifice to another category. But - the ability to combine performance, cargo, and aerodynamics really defines the ultimate for many purchasing in this SAV genre. So in addition to the P-SAVI, or 'Performance SAV Index' which analyzes performance and cargo vol, (with the formula 0-60 time x Wt/HP ratio divided by Cargo Vol), I've now added the P-SAVIE, or 'Performance SAV Index Enhanced' which now multiplies the P-SAVI by the Cd and the A. This allows improved separation between the larger and less aerodynamic performance SAVs.

One example - the Jaguar F-Pace S. It has good aerodynamics and a reasonable frontal area, low weight, and excellent cargo room. If Jaguar increases its HP from 380 to the upper 400s while keeping the other variables reasonably similar, it could prove a formidable competitor in this group. Likewise, Porsche and Mercedes already have the power options, but their cargo room ranks in the lowest which lowers their cumulative index.

As witnessed by sales of the Macan not everyone cares about cargo volume, and a lot of other important variables come into the mix when buying a performance SAV (handling being key, interior design and infotainment, etc), but the charts can assist in highlighting some of the features each bring to the table.
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      01-31-2018, 08:00 AM   #21
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While reviewing data for the 'Performance SAV - Comparison Charts' thread on the G01 Forum, I came across information on the Jaguar F-Pace SVR. [ https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...hots-and-video ]. Impressive. To see where it might land on the P-SAVIE list (the Triathlete of SAV analyses which combines performance, cargo volume, and aerodynamics), I plugged in 550 HP, which yields a Wt/HP ratio of 7.46 if its current weight can be maintained. That would allow a conservative 0-60mph of ~3.6 sec (probably more in the 3.4-3.5s range). To be fair I added 2/100ths to the Cd which increased it from 0.32 to 0.34. Those numbers yield a top-of-the-pack P-SAVIE of 0.74 (even better than the Trackhawk), thanks in part to its combination of excellent cargo volume and aerodynamics.

Hopefully BMW will allow the X3M equal footing in this competitive field at its release - a difficult goal it seems, if it arrives with less than 500HP.
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      03-07-2018, 09:55 AM   #22
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Spreadsheets updated (opening post) after finding the Urus' Cd, which allows for calculation of it's P-SAVIE parameter.

If BMW allows the X3M to arrive with 490HP (not just with ZCP), per these estimations it would remain in second place (to only the Trackhawk) in that global index which evaluates performance, cargo volume, and aerodynamics. But unclear for how long, for if the F-Pace SVR is released with 570HP, it's P-SAVIE should drop into the 0.60s with a lowered Wt/HP ratio and 0-60 time easily in the 3.4s range it would seem, moving it into first place.

Will be interesting to see how they position it.

Last edited by Max Well; 03-07-2018 at 10:03 AM..
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