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      08-03-2012, 03:57 AM   #23
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This thread is like reading The Daily Mail. Of course the flip side is that the non-criminal majority of migrant workers come in to do the poorly paid jobs that support the ageing Norwegian population in retirement. Without cheap migrant labour there wouldn't be enough people in work to sustain your economy and it would collapse. Same situation in the UK.

Of course there will be criminals taking advantage of the situation. That's life.
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      08-03-2012, 04:01 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by sfax View Post
This thread is like reading The Daily Mail. Of course the flip side is that the non-criminal majority of migrant workers come in to do the poorly paid jobs that support the ageing Norwegian population in retirement. Without cheap migrant labour there wouldn't be enough people in work to sustain your economy and it would collapse. Same situation in the UK.

Of course there will be criminals taking advantage of the situation. That's life.
You still live in that illusion, good for you.
Recent studies have shown that immigration is not cost effective,its better to help people in their own countries, to build their own infrastructure, the chinese have recognized this referring to their work on the African continent, i suggest you educate yourself before stating things you can't understate with reliable studies! In norway aprox. 1/3 of the population is on welfare. Who will pay for this when the oil dwells are dry?
In Spain 50% of the youth under 20 yrs are without work. I think theres is more than enough people in each country to manage the "low paid" jobs without the need to recruit from abroad.

Cameron in the UK, Merkel in Germany, and former president Sarkozy in France have all said that immigration politics have failed...

This is what your own prime minister said:
http://www.france24.com/en/20110205-...ays-pm-cameron


Lets now please keep to topic.. Stealing of BMWs :-)

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      08-03-2012, 05:07 AM   #25
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Wow, what an amazing revelation: A conservative prime minister says immigration isn't working. And all of these incredible completely independent and unbiased studies backing up the fact. Amazing. Thank you so much for enlightening me. How foolish I've been with the wool pulled over my eyes for so long. I appreciate you're not a native English speaker but as I said before, you'd have more credibility if you actually understood the words you were using. "i suggest you educate yourself before stating things you can't understate with reliable studies" is utter nonsense.

Put down your understated reliable studies [sic] in the right wing press and do your own arithmetic: People live much longer in retirement than they used to. They don't pay taxes. They don't have anything like as many children as they used to. Net result: Not enough home grown taxpayers. Not enough home grown workers. Comparing Norway or the UK with China shows a complete lack of understanding of economics and demographics. The Chinese economy is booming because they are rapidly catching up with the rest of the rich countries in the world. It's already starting to tail off as they catch up and it will look very different in 10 years from now

I'll happily return to the main discussion when you stop trying to "educate" me
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      08-03-2012, 05:10 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by mooney058 View Post

So I could not agree that 'slavic race generally do more crime' - that could be your perception, but you could not even support it with evidence - or could you? You state this as a fact, I am not seing any fact here. BTW, I am not slavic.
Just an example:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/26...-s-prisons.htm

Surge in Eastern European Criminals in Britain's Prisons

Article
By Shane Croucher: Subscribe to Shane's RSS feed
December 7, 2011 2:53 PM GMT

Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian and Latvian prisoners are a growing prescence among the multi-national British prison population.

Analysis of the data by the International Business Times UK shows that over the past decade there has been a continuous trend of more foreign prisoners than is proportionate to foreign nationals in the British population at large.

Where are the Foreign Nationals in Britain's Prisons From?

Irish (736), Polish (756) and Nigerian (581) immigrants are all highly represented in British prisons.

As a regional group, eastern Europeans make up most of the top ten nationalities other than British, at 1,835 prisoners. The next highest is Asians, at 1,366.

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      08-03-2012, 05:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sfax View Post
Comparing Norway or the UK with China shows a complete lack of understanding of economics and demographics. The Chinese economy is booming because they are rapidly catching up with the rest of the rich countries in the world. It's already starting to tail off as they catch up and it will look very different in 10 years from now

I'll happily return to the main discussion when you stop trying to "educate" me

If you read the text again, I state that its better to help people where they are and that the Chinese have recognized this.. And they also position themselves on the natural resources rich continent .

Your cooking soup on a nail.... Bon appetite :-)

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      08-03-2012, 05:28 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by X3andZ4owner View Post
Just an example:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/26...-s-prisons.htm


Where are the Foreign Nationals in Britain's Prisons From?

Irish (736), Polish (756) and Nigerian (581) immigrants are all highly represented in British prisons.

As a regional group, eastern Europeans make up most of the top ten nationalities other than British, at 1,835 prisoners. The next highest is Asians, at 1,366.

Sorry, you do like selective reading, don't you? Just a paste from the last section from the link provided by yourself above:

"Foreign Nationals 'Not More Likely to Commit Crime' Than Brits

James Banks, senior criminology lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University, claims there's "little evidence" to support the theory that foreigners are more likely to commit crime than British nationals.

"Increasing numbers of foreign nationals subject to remand and immediate custody are important drivers of the growth in the foreign national prison population," Banks wrote in a May 2011 article in the Howard Journal of Criminal Justice.

"That foreign nationals lack the requisite antecedents and offence history to enable accurate risk assessment, coupled with a belief that they pose a greater risk of absconding than British nationals, may result in remand and custody as the default option in many cases.

"Moreover, the significant number of foreign nationals convicted for drug offences appears to contribute to the number of foreign nationals subject to immediate custody."

Banks added that "greater clarity in official data is required if we are to pinpoint the exact causes of this increase". "
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      08-03-2012, 05:37 AM   #29
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just don't get me wrong, I hate criminals and I understand that sometimes emotions take over, and that foreign criminals make it to the press more often - criminals are criminals everythere and if you or your neighbour suffer from them it does not really matter where they are comming from - it is just bad. All societies have their own share of bad population, but my point is that it is more to do with general economic situation than a race or ethnic group.

Eventhough I work and live now in Belgium, I was born in Soviet Union - there were few criminals at those times. What has changed in the meantime is economic situation and general frustration with transition period - it was not easy. I am myself lithuanian and my parrents tell me that during 'their time' nobody used locks in villages - people trusted each other and it was simply 'not good to steal', etc. Most people did not change and are like that (though they use locks now), but there is a group of stupid and bad people who try to take advantage or weaker people by stealing etc?
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      08-03-2012, 06:16 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by sfax View Post
Put down your understated reliable studies [sic] in the right wing press and do your own arithmetic

Please keep your labels for yourself... rightwing media and that sort of rubbish.. labeling people is the easiest and most dumb way stupid people try to end a conversation when they do not have the substance, intellectual power and arguments to hold their stand....

Heres some snack for you :
( Suggest you just skip to conclusions whereas it can be a to much of intellectual power consumption for you to read the whole text:-)

http://ftp.iza.org/dp2872.pdf

Report made by :

Frisch Centre
About the Frisch Centre


The Ragnar Frisch Centre for Economic Research is an independent research institution founded by the University of Oslo and operational from 1 January 1999. The Frisch Centre conducts economic research in co-operation with the Department of Economics at the University of Oslo.

Another conclusion from state financed agency and researcher at the statistical central bureau in Norway:

http://translate.google.com/translat...cle2403420.ece



This is an article about a conclusion in an government report

http://translate.google.com/translat...yrt%2F20055747

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      08-03-2012, 06:25 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mooney058 View Post
Sorry, you do like selective reading, don't you? Just a paste from the last section from the link provided by yourself above:

"Foreign Nationals 'Not More Likely to Commit Crime' Than Brits

James Banks, senior criminology lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University, claims there's "little evidence" to support the theory that foreigners are more likely to commit crime than British nationals.

"Increasing numbers of foreign nationals subject to remand and immediate custody are important drivers of the growth in the foreign national prison population," Banks wrote in a May 2011 article in the Howard Journal of Criminal Justice.

"That foreign nationals lack the requisite antecedents and offence history to enable accurate risk assessment, coupled with a belief that they pose a greater risk of absconding than British nationals, may result in remand and custody as the default option in many cases.

"Moreover, the significant number of foreign nationals convicted for drug offences appears to contribute to the number of foreign nationals subject to immediate custody."

Banks added that "greater clarity in official data is required if we are to pinpoint the exact causes of this increase". "
You forgot the heading :-)


Surge in Eastern European Criminals in Britain's Prisons

Article
By Shane Croucher: Subscribe to Shane's RSS feed
December 7, 2011 2:53 PM GMT

Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian and Latvian prisoners are a growing prescence among the multi-national British prison population.

Analysis of the data by the International Business Times UK shows that over the past decade there has been a continuous trend of more foreign prisoners than is proportionate to foreign nationals in the British population at large.
--------------

You must count percent wise not number of criminals.. :-)
If theres 2 Eskimos living in the UK and 1 is criminal than the criminal rate in the UK is 50 % for Eskimos...

Now please do your math :-)

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      08-03-2012, 07:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by X3andZ4owner View Post
You forgot the heading :-)


Surge in Eastern European Criminals in Britain's Prisons

Article
By Shane Croucher: Subscribe to Shane's RSS feed
December 7, 2011 2:53 PM GMT

Polish, Romanian, Lithuanian and Latvian prisoners are a growing prescence among the multi-national British prison population.

Analysis of the data by the International Business Times UK shows that over the past decade there has been a continuous trend of more foreign prisoners than is proportionate to foreign nationals in the British population at large.
--------------

You must count percent wise not number of criminals.. :-)
If theres 2 Eskimos living in the UK and 1 is criminal than the criminal rate in the UK is 50 % for Eskimos...

Now please do your math :-)
What I think I am good at is math and stats. My EN is not perfect, especially in the rush, but if you read the title of the article, it does say that there is an increase (though 'surge') of crimilanl acts committed by non-UK citizens in the UK. Though there is no evidence (as article and says that) that imigrant comunity is more prone to crime than local comunity. If you follow the logic of a 'great' soviet leader Stalin, then yes - 'if there is no person, there is no problem' - and you know how he dealt with 'problems'. What you have to understad, is that you can not simply 'import' good behaving citizens - if anyone could travel, bad people also travel - they do lots of harm - in your country, to the image of their home country etc. I understand you look from your personal perspective, but that is the way it is. If you look further into history, people from the north used to travel for robbing and all other bad purposes quite a lot. It is just not right to have collective blame and shame.
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      08-03-2012, 07:13 AM   #33
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This discussion does not belong on any BMW fan forum. It is not about BMWs.
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      08-03-2012, 07:19 AM   #34
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This discussion does not belong on any BMW fan forum. It is not about BMWs.
Its a spinoff going back to me writing the police report on stolen X5s, where the police suspected eastern European villains..

Relating to that eastern european gangs have specialized on stealing high end BMWs which are transported to and sold in the former east block countries..

BMW does not notice the fact that they have an security breach and meanwhile owners have to pay with more expensive insurances and loss of vehicles...

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      08-03-2012, 07:26 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by mooney058 View Post
What I think I am good at is math and stats. My EN is not perfect, especially in the rush, but if you read the title of the article, it does say that there is an increase (though 'surge') of crimilanl acts committed by non-UK citizens in the UK. Though there is no evidence (as article and says that) that imigrant comunity is more prone to crime than local comunity. If you follow the logic of a 'great' soviet leader Stalin, then yes - 'if there is no person, there is no problem' - and you know how he dealt with 'problems'. What you have to understad, is that you can not simply 'import' good behaving citizens - if anyone could travel, bad people also travel - they do lots of harm - in your country, to the image of their home country etc. I understand you look from your personal perspective, but that is the way it is. If you look further into history, people from the north used to travel for robbing and all other bad purposes quite a lot. It is just not right to have collective blame and shame.
If you open you eyes an LOOK at the statistics provided in the article and maybe even follow the links provided in the INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS TIMES -article, you will see that theres percent wise more criminals from eastern europe than there are percent wise eastern europeans living in the UK. I think this fact speak for itself...( and remember this is severe criminals not petty thieves)




Im sorry I can't provide the food and also chew it for you if you know what i mean ...

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      08-03-2012, 07:50 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by sfax View Post
This thread is like reading The Daily Mail.

Dear Sir , Heres an quote for You :-)


"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

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      08-03-2012, 09:08 AM   #37
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      08-03-2012, 09:17 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sfax View Post
Funny

However, very infantile... And tells a lot more about you than those you try to argue with :-) And it only fundaments what i stated earlier..

Quote:
Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

Ridicule is the first and last argument of a fool
Charles Simmons
Which brings me to these wise words posted earlier:

"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

Have a really nice day :-)

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      08-03-2012, 09:29 AM   #39
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sssssshhhhh. Know when to stop
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      08-03-2012, 09:36 AM   #40
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a paper provided a graph and you took it with 100% certainty, while at the same time there is no evidence - as quoted by the specialist/scientist working on the subject. I understand that a simple graph with two lines/bars is visually appealing - but as a first thing I would question the reliability of data - there are allegedly more actual immigrants living in the UK than officialy registered number.

I have no intention to change you way of thinking, and as said before - I really feel and share your frustration - but I could not accept your overgeneralisation.

The cars stollen in EU/Nordic countries do not end-up in EU's part of 'former easter block', but according to other newspapers, it travels much further to the south (geographically speaking) - Middle Asia. Same happened to my compatriots' cars newly bought in Lithuania, where 'supply' of new cars is limited, therefore criminals exploring other markets where 'supply' is higher ...

What needs to be done is to stop 'demand' side - believe me, authorities in countries of former eastern block (politically speaking) are trying to solve this issue, but it is not easy, as we are speaking about organised crime. So you see - if you dig deeper, you find new layers - thus your generalisation is not 100% accurate as people from the eastern block are trying to solve this issue for the benefits of its own people and for your safety as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by X3andZ4owner View Post
Funny

However, very infantile... And tells a lot more about you than those you try to argue with :-) And it only fundaments what i stated earlier.. When a person runs out of arguments.... one tend to label and ridicule the other ..

which brings me to these wise words posted earlier:



"All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)

Have a really nice day :-)
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      08-03-2012, 09:41 AM   #41
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a paper provided a graph and you took it with 100% certainty, while at the same time there is no evidence - as quoted by the specialist/scientist working on the subject. I understand that a simple graph with two lines/bars is visually appealing - but as a first thing I would question the reliability of data - there are allegedly more actual immigrants living in the UK than officialy registered number.

I have no intention to change you way of thinking, and as said before - I really feel and share your frustration - but I could not accept your overgeneralisation.

The cars stollen in EU/Nordic countries do not end-up in EU's part of 'former easter block', but according to other newspapers, it travels much further to the south (geographically speaking) - Middle Asia. Same happened to my compatriots' cars newly bought in Lithuania, where 'supply' of new cars is limited, therefore criminals exploring other markets where 'supply' is higher ...

What needs to be done is to stop 'demand' side - believe me, authorities in countries of former eastern block (politically speaking) are trying to solve this issue, but it is not easy, as we are speaking about organised crime. So you see - if you dig deeper, you find new layers - thus your generalisation is not 100% accurate as people from the eastern block are trying to solve this issue for the benefits of its own people and for your safety as well
Lets agree that we disagree, fine with me..

But the numbers don't lie in what ever way you turn and twist ..
Reality speaks for itself and criminality has gone up the last years and there are more foreign criminals in UK jails now than for 10 years ago , the criminal percentage is higher than in the ethnic UK population. These are facts NOT fiction :-)
The numbers are there for you to see.

And I can understand you to doubt information from databases from not so good Universities as Oxford.... but what the heck..

From the "little known news agency" International Business Times:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The International Business Times UK
The International Business Times UK arrived at these findings by comparing the total prison population to the total number of foreign nationals in prison against data from the University of Oxford's Migration Observatory."
Some of The national statistics can however be found here if you follow the link in the article from The International Business Times UK

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ncoming-232773

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      08-03-2012, 10:34 AM   #42
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Lets agree that we disagree, fine with me..

But the numbers don't lie in what ever way you turn and twist ..
Reality speaks for itself and criminality has gone up the last years and there are more foreign criminals in UK jails now than for 10 years ago , the criminal percentage is higher than in the ethnic UK population. These are facts NOT fiction :-)
The numbers are there for you to see.

And I can understand you to doubt information from databases from not so good Universities as Oxford.... but what the heck..

From the "little known news agency" International Business Times:



Some of The national statistics can however be found here if you follow the link in the article from The International Business Times UK

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ncoming-232773
I am sorry, you do have selective reading issue - you see what you want to see, and not necessarily what it says ...

If there are more criminals in foreign countries, Ryanair is to blaim - the same is true in my native country - foreign criminals in LT are not only from 'further east', but also from the West and North (increase in rape cases increased quite substantily). If you want to develop this topic furhter, you can send me a private message, I will provide links to articles etc about increased criminality (of other type). My point is still the same - let's not generalise and simplify things.
I feel ashamed of my compatriots who committ crimes, but I also know that there are people with fake LT passports traveling accross the EU (reported in national media) and doing bad things there.
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      08-03-2012, 10:36 AM   #43
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Like the annoying kid in class who wouldn't shut up until every one agreed he was right and everyone else was wrong. Probably bullied for it which explains a lot.
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      08-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #44
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Like the annoying kid in class who wouldn't shut up until every one agreed he was right and everyone else was wrong. Probably bullied for it which explains a lot.
Jesus, how old are you ? 12?

I have presented valid data and facts from reliable sources, what have you done except unveiling your ignorance?

Please dont waste my time anymore :-)

As for the other post with nonsense about Ryan air etc, needs no explanation, when someone can't thrust data provided from Oxford University , that speaks for itself ...

When you start to ridicule your opponent that means that you have runned out of constructive arguments and that you have resigned, I really don't see any point on having a dialogue further with you ...

My only saying is that time will show , and I hope that you won't in 10 years time will give me right :-) Because then society have taken turns that are not favorable .

Have a nice day further you two :-)

Just the last fact :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html

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