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      11-30-2011, 09:49 AM   #1
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30D vs 35D

I originally added this post to a 35D thread. It justifies it's own thread, so I'm repeating it here:

In trying to track down the wind noise on my 30D I did a back-to-back test with a 35D today. I really didn't want to drive a 35D in case it put me off my 30D! Here are my thoughts:

The 35D is a bit quicker and a bit more responsive. Neither improvement was massive but they were noticeable. I felt the bigger difference was in reduced turbo lag (responsiveness), this was to the point where lag wasn't really noticeable.

I don't feel bad now about "just" having a 30D so I'm pleased I drove the car. Would I get a 35D if I were ordering now? Probably yes, but it's not that big a deal, it would depend on the lease cost and also taking into account the higher road fund licence band and insurance costs.
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      11-30-2011, 10:01 AM   #2
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Talking

Good write up.
I love mine.
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      11-30-2011, 10:38 AM   #3
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Road tax is the same for both, Band G 151 - 165g/km CO2 so 165 a year. Not much in the fuel either if you believe the official figures. The only real hit is a 1% increase in BIK if you run it as a company car
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      11-30-2011, 10:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troggy1969 View Post
Road tax is the same for both, Band G 151 - 165g/km CO2 so 165 a year. Not much in the fuel either if you believe the official figures. The only real hit is a 1% increase in BIK if you run it as a company car
There's something about businesses that buy cars over 159g, it changes the way they write down the costs.

In terms of lease cost the difference over 3 years is about 1,500
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      11-30-2011, 10:53 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
There's something about businesses that buy cars over 159g, it changes the way they write down the costs.

In terms of lease cost the difference over 3 years is about 1,500
The write down per year is reduced from 20% to 10% once you go over 160g/km. As it's really the wifes car and it'll be run through her business I'll have to stay with the 30D. Still, I can chip it to 323hp and 700Nm!
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      11-30-2011, 12:10 PM   #6
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The write down per year is reduced from 20% to 10% once you go over 160g/km. As it's really the wifes car and it'll be run through her business I'll have to stay with the 30D. Still, I can chip it to 323hp and 700Nm!
Who will provide the Chip then?.
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      11-30-2011, 12:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by johnbmw6 View Post
Who will provide the Chip then?.
http://www.tdi-tuning.co.uk/car_and_..._kw_P2573.html

Only if I need the power!
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      11-30-2011, 12:28 PM   #8
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We need someone to get one on the 14 day trial period and give us all feedback
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      11-30-2011, 12:32 PM   #9
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Would be nice but as mine's a lease I can't.
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      11-30-2011, 01:08 PM   #10
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Do it. I had one on a company car for 3 years. Just take it off for servicing!
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      11-30-2011, 01:21 PM   #11
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Do it. I had one on a company car for 3 years. Just take it off for servicing!
That's quite a risk, the dealer can tell straight away from the diagnostic data held on the car that it's been "over-delivering". My leasing company is Alphabet (ie BMW), warranty would be written off and keeping it secret means I'm not insured either.....if I did it would have to be totally above board.
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      11-30-2011, 02:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
That's quite a risk, the dealer can tell straight away from the diagnostic data held on the car that it's been "over-delivering". My leasing company is Alphabet (ie BMW), warranty would be written off and keeping it secret means I'm not insured either.....if I did it would have to be totally above board.
I heard that it's only a problem for warranty remedial work if they can prove that what you have done has caused the issue. Insurance is a different matter but again, if you wrote the car off do you think the insurance assessor would take the car to BMW and get them to run a diagnostic on it and try to work out if had been chipped? And if you removed the "chip" after the accident and denied all knowledge it would be pretty difficult and costly to prove IMO
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      11-30-2011, 02:23 PM   #13
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I heard that it's only a problem for warranty remedial work if they can prove that what you have done has caused the issue. Insurance is a different matter but again, if you wrote the car off do you think the insurance assessor would take the car to BMW and get them to run a diagnostic on it and try to work out if had been chipped? And if you removed the "chip" after the accident and denied all knowledge it would be pretty difficult and costly to prove IMO
Insurance companies will do anything to get out of making payments. Looking for evidence of chipping is one of the first things they do. Re warranty, you basically null the warranty on engine & transmission. The data they pull off the car is pretty conclusive, the police frequently request this to be done. The onus would be on you to prove you didn't chip the car.

BMW dealers have for ages been valuing cars lowly where have been thrashed, M3s in particular - they access the count that shows how many times the rev limiter has been operated. The stuff basic OBD-II records is pretty good but the internal BMW s/w records sooo much and is very easy for them to access.

I wouldn't put my family out on the street because I was naive and reckless. Having worked in the Telematics industry with insurers trialing PAYD I have insight into this stuff. Sure 98% of people will get away with it. I don't want to be in the 2%.
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      11-30-2011, 04:33 PM   #14
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Fair points and well made. I guess it's all down to whether you think these risks are worth it. 2% if you have an accident that's your fault is small but not insignificant.

The data stored on the car opens up some interesting data protection and privacy issues. Who owns this data, BMW? Some of it is effectively data held about you and therefore you could ask to see it
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      11-30-2011, 05:32 PM   #15
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Fair points and well made. I guess it's all down to whether you think these risks are worth it. 2% if you have an accident that's your fault is small but not insignificant.

The data stored on the car opens up some interesting data protection and privacy issues. Who owns this data, BMW? Some of it is effectively data held about you and therefore you could ask to see it
The data ownership issue is interesting. It;s not yet been tested in court, I expect it will be. I've discussed the topic with a number of car makers. Their view is that their programs and algorithms are responsible for most of the data so they own it. Drivers respond by saying tha Microsoft don't own the world's spreadsheets. I think both arguments are flawed and we need some form of legal judgement on this.

The most accurate analogy would be where Microsoft supply the spreadsheet program and the logic in the spreadsheet, then user (driver) then fills in the data. Maybe cars should come with a software licence agreement, if they did I bet I'd know who the owner of the data would be!
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Last edited by clivem2; 12-01-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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      11-30-2011, 05:34 PM   #16
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Mine has enough for now, and as has been stated, BMW soon find the "Over Boost and increased fuelling map" IF they care to look that is, many dealership will not but some may if an engine problem arrises.
I have remapped a lot of my cars and got away with it though. Many cars go into the dealers stock with remaps still on them, they see lots of cars like that, they just over write it too STD.
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      11-30-2011, 06:04 PM   #17
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It's not really in the interests of the dealers to alienate their customers and warranty anyway is paid for by the car makers.

I just want folks to understand the issues and then make up their own minds armed with the knowledge of what could happen. In extreme situations the consequences could be severe, ie losing all you own (if uninsured). This won't be commonplace at all but it is a risk.
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      12-01-2011, 04:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
The data ownership issue is interesting. It;s not yet been tested in court, I expect it will be. I've discussed the topic with a number of car makers. Their view is that their programs and algorithms are responsible for most of the data so they own it. Drivers respond by saying the Microsoft don't own the world's spreadsheets. I think both arguments are flawed and we need some form of legal judgement on this.
Never thought of it like that but it would be interesting if they did void the warrenty. Who gave them avvess to your data!

I like the idea of chipping, more power & less fuel, EU5 engines run rich to keep the NoX down. The only downside is you would run at EU4 or EU3 which isn't a probelem once a car is sold.

I'm tempted to get one, just need the car first!!!
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      12-01-2011, 11:16 AM   #19
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I like the idea of chipping, more power & less fuel, EU5 engines run rich to keep the NoX down. The only downside is you would run at EU4 or EU3 which isn't a probelem once a car is sold.
Can you elaborate on this affecting EU rating
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      12-01-2011, 11:28 AM   #20
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To reduce the NoX production to acheive EU5, combustion temps have to be reduced. To do this some exhaust gas is fed back into the engine via the EGR valve and the engine is set to run rich. By reducing the oxygen and and lowering the temperature less NoX (oxides of nitrogen) is formed. The exact process I don't know but that is the basics. I work more with heavy machinery and as emission laws have tightened fuel usage has increased.
The other way to do it is like Mercedes are trying is to after treat the exhaust with eurea, commonly know as 'add blue' in the uk but that leads to other problems with after treatment cats.
From what I understand from the chipping industry they reduce many of the negative efficency reducing requirements of achieving EU5 giving more power and using less fuel.
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      12-02-2011, 02:12 PM   #21
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Interesting thanks
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      12-02-2011, 04:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
That's quite a risk, the dealer can tell straight away from the diagnostic data held on the car that it's been "over-delivering". My leasing company is Alphabet (ie BMW), warranty would be written off and keeping it secret means I'm not insured either.....if I did it would have to be totally above board.
I'm friendly with 3 of my local dealers and none of them check this plus they cannot tell straight away either. It all depends on how the remap has been done, which maps have been updated (there are several) and what parameters have been changed. For a well written remap that does not exceed factory parameters would be very hard to find but not impossible.

Also BMW would have to prove that the remap was the cause of any failure. Plus only the parts that are involved directly with the engine would not be covered. Having a remap will not void wheels, suspensions , bodywork warranties etc.
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