[NYCX3]

Here's something that may be of interest to discuss here:

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2028604...ivacy-concerns

Anyone know what data points BMW collects, and if possible to disable?

[noka]

I don't really have a problem with it. Seems like more good could come out of it than bad but I am not one to quickly believe consiracy theories.

[daninny]

I too have no problem with it. I think most people who have problems with these black boxes, surveillance cameras on street corners, red light cameras, etc. are afraid of something. Obviously if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Of course, there are incidences of abuse, etc., however, I believe that overall, the good outweigh the bad in most of these situations.

[midlifecrisis]

Originally Posted by noka

I don't really have a problem with it. Seems like more good could come out of it than bad but I am not one to quickly believe consiracy theories.

I agree. Unless there's some sort of flaw in data collection, I don't have a problem with it.

If you screw up, man up!

[Polar_Bimmer]

Originally Posted by noka

I don't really have a problem with it. Seems like more good could come out of it than bad but I am not one to quickly believe consiracy theories.

+1

[Nahoa]

So long as that data is retained in the black box and not continuously transmitted in an attributable way, there is no privacy issue. In the US (as other places) we have a right to privacy, we do not have a right to anonymity. There is nothing in our constitution that grants us a right to be in public and have your actions not be noted -- and that supports the rule of law and the rights of others. In my experience the only folks who make this jump and try to protect a right to anonymity are folks doing something they know they shouldn't and that is either illegal or socially unacceptable.

[BillyT]

Hey guys, we're there already! When I had a technical problem with my 2.0dSE X3 recently (reported elsewhere here) I was astounded to find that all my usage data for the car going back several weeks was saved on the key fob. The service agent could tell what speeds I had been doing, lengths of journeys when I fueled the car etc etc. The data was all used to help diagnose and confirm the problem but really, Big Brother is watching you NOW

[Nahoa]

Big Brother? That's been used to mean governments watching you, that's not what's going on here. It's data about how the vehicle has been operated looked at by an auto tech, what's the harm in that?

[rmbs16]

I wonder if the black box data can be used to prove your innocence in case of an accident where the fault is not yours especially the speed and braking related data can be retrieved to support your case. I don't know if this data available for the owners to benefit.
Since the data collection is pertained to the car not the driver, I don't believe this violates any constitutional rights of the owner (unless the box tracked data is being transmitted to the manufacturers on a daily basis).

[noka]

Aside from any software defects (as any programmer/developer could appreciate) maybe it's as simple as: The black box tells the truth and that should help keep us free

[scotta2]

The information from this can and will be used by police who may want to investigate any serious driving misdemeanor. It would be interesting to know if they could also take action against you if they see you have broken the national speed limit at any time. I wonder how far back the data goes and exactly what information is held on it.

Then again I suppose it could be used to prove a persons innocence if they were involved in some kind of driving incident. Personally I dont have any issues with it as I dont break the speed limit or drive like lunatic.

[April1]

All wishful thinking
----------------------
If my car has a black box:
1. I should have the right to know what data is being captured.
2. I should have the right to decide to share data with others.
3. Data should be encrypted per my pass code.

After all its my car and I can't implant devices in it for the benefits of others.

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by noka

but I am not one to quickly believe consiracy theories.

conspiracy theories no - but having worked in bureaucracies, I believe in function creep, jobsworths and knee jerk reactions to impose unnecessary and ineffective punishments which such technology can help with.

Originally Posted by daninny

I think most people who have problems with these black boxes, surveillance cameras on street corners, red light cameras, etc. are afraid of something. Obviously if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Of course, there are incidences of abuse, etc., however, I believe that overall, the good outweigh the bad in most of these situations.

um -

Originally Posted by bbc

In addition, 38 organisations have been permanently banned over the same three-year period, including some the UK's biggest local authorities such as Camden, Southwark and Brighton and Hove.

Often these tools just move the problems elsewhere

[Markap]

From my neighbor who's business is reading the boxes and testifying in court...basically they are there because the car companies got tired of paying every time someone sued claiming that ole Jim-Bob went through the windshield 'cause the seatbelt or brakes failed. The box can show if latched, activated etc along with a bunch of other stuff. If ever in an accident, definitely get the box from the other car read.

[bogx3]

Originally Posted by April1

All wishful thinking
----------------------
If my car has a black box:
1. I should have the right to know what data is being captured.
2. I should have the right to decide to share data with others.
3. Data should be encrypted per my pass code.

After all its my car and I can't implant devices in it for the benefits of others.

[clivem2]

Data ownership is an issue that's not be resolved. Does the car manufacturer own the data or does the driver?

If you create a spreadsheet you own the logic and data. The software vendor owns the spreadsheet package which is licensed by yourself.

So as a driver shouldn't you own the data you create?

[Nahoa]

The data I understand to be in question relates to the driver's actions conducted in public, they're not private, these devices simply record those details in a reliable manner. Whether a seatbelt was on at the time of an accident is a publicly observable piece of information, that there may not have been someone looking at the time does not make it private.

A driver's speed down a public road is not private, nor is a headlight failure, the activation status of a turn signal, or even if they were engaged in a phone call. The playlist they're listening to on their iPod might be private, but the song probably isn't. Their intended destination might be private, but is likely among the set of data many have allowed to be anonymously used to support traffic analysis.

We have no right and should have no expectation to control the observability and communication of things we do in public.

[sfax]

You have a right to see data that companies hold about you. I guess it's whether your driving record data falls into that category.

At the moment, could this data be used to prosecute you? E.g. BMW see 105mph and hand it over to the police. Could it then be used in court? I'm not saying this would happen, just asking the question about whether it could be used in court (without there being an accident)

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

We have no right and should have no expectation to control the observability and communication of things we do in public.

I have some sympathy with this view but not all countries have the same viewpoint and when data ownership is tested in court you might be surprised. Two examples are Netherlands and Germany; they have very tough privacy laws. Some countries are REALLY sensitive to how the state might misuse data. Think Nazi Germany here...if you had this history in your country you would probably have a different view on privacy.

[Nahoa]

My view might be very similar regarding safeguarding right to privacy regarding personal data and information related to things done/existing in the privacy of ones home, in a pocket or handbag, on a computer, or the like.

For me it mostly boils down to things we do in public are public -- I can have no expectation of walking through the city with a red post-it on my forehead without someone noting it and possibly telling someone else. If I'm at home with the post-it on, or if the post-it is in my wallet, it's a different thing.

In this case, the black box data (so far as I understand) relates to public events. In this regard, as has been noted above, knowing what data the box records is essential.

[clivem2]

The background to the issues some have is that it's easy to link vehicle ownership to religion, ethnicity, gender, political alignement and then misuse this data in some way to persecute people. Having GPS data included would probably be needed for this to work. This probably is not collected, except for PAYD insurance but then you sign up explicitly for this to happen.

OK at the moment it seems unlikely to be an issue in most western countries but not all countries. The data collected is probably trivial now but as we've seen with Facebook the level of intrusion changes over time and you need to be sufficiently aware to turn off some settings. It is not the case that BMW or other manufacturers offer this service - maybe they don't need to at the moment.

[clivem2]

I have what may be a borderline example for some.

BMW can detect that your engine is producing 400BHP instead of 300BHP or that the fuel flow is too high for 300BHP.

They could do a various of things:

1) Void your engine and transmission warranty.

2) Inform the insurance authorities to ensure you've not forgotten to disclose that the engine has received a power boost (in Europe I believe this is required, I don't know how US insurance works).

3) Write to you regarding warranty and the insurance reminder.

BMW are unlikely to do 2) as this would completely piss you off, mind you 1) isn't much better.

Is this invading your privacy?