[clivem2]

More bad news for diesels in Europe. Sunday Times today:

"DIESEL cars certified under EU rules as the cleanest yet built are pumping out toxic exhaust emissions at up to 9.9 times the official maximum, a Sunday Times investigation has revealed.

Tests on 29 new diesel cars showed that all but five emitted nitrogen oxides (NOx) at levels well above the maximum allowed under the new “Euro 6” standards, which were drawn up specifically to cut such pollution.
A Mazda6 2.2-litre turbo SkyActiv-D tested for The Sunday Times produced four times the Euro 6 maximum of 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre overall. That rose to 12.6 times the limit when it was going uphill in residential areas with speed bumps.

Another, a BMW X3 2-litre turbo 4x4, generated 9.9 times the Euro 6 NOx limit overall, while the 1.6-litre EcoFlex turbo engine in Vauxhall’s Zafira Tech Line Tourer produced 9.5 times more than the Euro 6 limit overall.

Diesel vehicles produce two key toxins: particulates(fine particles that attack the lungs and organs) and NO2, the active component of NOx. They are blamed for 50,000 premature deaths a year.

Experts blame the death toll on the failure of the EU system for controlling diesel emissions, under which all new vehicle models have to pass a European emission standards test.

However, the test is done in a laboratory, not on the road, and seriously underestimates real emissions."

[Peter_R]

I am not disagreeing, but....

Even more scare mongering from a British Sunday newspaper! Were their sales down last Sunday?

Who is the author this time? Better still who is the editor who thought it would make a good story? Presumably there is not a good story to throw out there this Sunday? Ah...yes there is....ISIS are looking to purchase a Nuclear weapon from Pakistan....

http://www.timesofisrael.com/is-clai...-of-nuking-us/

Remember their [Telegraph] daily version last year? See it here...

This diesel backlash is completely overblown!

By Nick Gibbs1:51PM BST 07 Aug 2014

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...overblown.html

In the above they were being contradictory and chastising the Sun newspaper, and so wanted to have the upper hand.

Enough said...they are all headline chasing money grabbing sensationalists.

Now if you have an official government report saying that the EU6 emissions system is not working, please post in this thread and I will stop being sceptical and read the facts.

Have a read of this:

http://www.smmt.co.uk/industry-topic...esponsiveTabs1

Makes interesting reading! Note the pie chart at the bottom of the report. Power stations are the worst culprits.

[clivem2]

It's so hard to know the truth in all this. I can't help feeling that all the different performance modes we get are at least partially there to make the figures look good then to get decent response from the engine we have to use Sport. I don't suppose the official figures are achieved end under test in Sport.

[Peter_R]

Originally Posted by clivem2

It's so hard to know the truth in all this.

The truth [if there is such a thing] is probably mid way between both sides of the discussion.

Great strides are made each year and each incarnation of the EU directive gives us cleaner cars, however the cars are never as clean as they manufacturers would have us believe. Having postulated that, I would suggest that they will always get cleaner and cleaner year after year to the point that the critics will have got what they want.

Also remember progress has been made to clean up the air in cities. It is not true that just diesels are the main contributing factor. Power stations are even worse. Also bear in mind that every year we find that all the smog etc is blown across the North Sea and the English Channel and pollutes our cities. So it is the Europeans on the near continent who are just as bad, because it [smog rubbish] is blown over to us.

[Kermit]

Originally Posted by Peter_R

Even more scare mongering from a British Sunday newspaper! Were their sales down last Sunday?

...were my first thoughts as well!

We don't often see the headlines: "Stop Press-Cars don't live up official combined mpg figures", but yet it's exactly the same thing. There's a standardised way of measuring these things, which will most likely be different to how they eventually get driven by human beings.

I dare say this story is being run because it's 100 days until Euro6 becomes mandatory in all new cars this weekend??

Manufacturers play a good game though, I heard a story once that suggested that modern cars can recognise when they're being driven in a way that is reminicent of an official Urban/Extra Urban (as defined) test, which triggers the ECUs to run a lean mixture to boost mpg+CO2 figures. Sneaky if true, but clever nonetheless.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Kermit

Manufacturers play a good game though, I heard a story once that suggested that modern cars can recognise when they're being driven in a way that is reminicent of an official Urban/Extra Urban (as defined) test, which triggers the ECUs to run a lean mixture to boost mpg+CO2 figures. Sneaky if true, but clever nonetheless.

It makes you wonder about the hesitation issues some have suffered in the US with the 35i. There's always been sneaking suspicion it was to do with meeting regs.

[ianfp]

There is and will be a lot more to the whole diesel debate than currently reported in the media. As much as I like my diesel, I hope there is a petrol X3 choice when I come to change my car.

[plymjack]

Never let the truth spoil a good story .......

Petrol was bad, so diesel was cheaper, so we brought diesels and now diesels are bad!!
Let me guess.... lets go back to that great idea of a fuel tax escalator now that prices have dropped.....(a silly idea we had in UK till fuel prices went so high!!)

Makers have spend millions producing better diesels and then the EU move the goal posts...

[clivem2]

In terms of the UK and Europe the initial purge was to get petrol emissions down with catalytic converters, these use some rather nasty metals which need to be recycled carefully.

Next came CO2 with taxation being based on this. We seem to have done quite well on this but was it all a red herring?

As standards came out to reduce diesel soot the manufacturers made the particulate size tiny which allowed them to pass the tests. Unfortunately small particles of soot are more easily ingested and therefore more carcinogenic.

Now we have NOX, this does look to be a real issue in cities. Yes a lot comes from power stations but it's the cities, especially central London which is really polluted, mostly due to buses.

We've had EU and UK government put in place regs and taxes for the above but there doesn't seem to have been much science or strategic thought behind their political actions (what a surprise). It's not surprising if the manufacturers see all this a game, finding ways to meet the letter of the law but not really improving matters.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Kermit

...were my first thoughts as well!

We don't often see the headlines: "Stop Press-Cars don't live up official combined mpg figures", but yet it's exactly the same thing. There's a standardised way of measuring these things, which will most likely be different to how they eventually get driven by human beings.

I dare say this story is being run because it's 100 days until Euro6 becomes mandatory in all new cars this weekend??

Manufacturers play a good game though, I heard a story once that suggested that modern cars can recognise when they're being driven in a way that is reminicent of an official Urban/Extra Urban (as defined) test, which triggers the ECUs to run a lean mixture to boost mpg+CO2 figures. Sneaky if true, but clever nonetheless.

It is a shame that such a serious subject of air quality, gets us all cynical when it becomes "news", with a media spin.

On the motoring press comment... I remember when well known UK motoring magazine covered the mpg shortfall with the headline, "EXPOSED: The Official MPG Lies". The same front page featured "VW's New Coupe, The 100MPG Stunner". That helps give a clear message.

We all know our cars, whether Diesel, Petrol, Hybrid or EV are all polluting, however we may dress it up. Then add the problem of official vs. mpg shortfall, we get a distortion of the true picture.

The issue with diesel, the reality is far more NOx emissions in day to day driving, than in the official tests and allowable for EU6 compliance.

This is from data collected and analysed by independent sources. In fact we could replicate the results with the right PEMS test equipment, there is no mystery to it. It is another failure of the official test procedures to give truly representative results for real world driving, the conditions which really matter.

Even with all the advancements in cleaning up engine emissions, we still need much more to be done to clean up air quality. We breath it after all.

The revised test procedures under the new Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP), due in the European Union from 2017 on, should give a more reflective position of mpg and emissions, including NOx. But it won't make good reading, as it will show targets are not being met in the way it looks on paper at present.

HighlandPete

[m_alnimah]

Originally Posted by plymjack

Petrol was bad, so diesel was cheaper, so we brought diesels and now diesels are bad!!

Well it's either BMW will be making Hybrids only or the UK would Get some Petrol's into their X3/4 Line up... Other than that, settle for a 520i, we've got one in the family and its faster than a Corolla GUARANTEED!

[Portimao318]

Originally Posted by m_alnimah

Well it's either BMW will be making Hybrids only or the UK would Get some Petrol's into their X3/4 Line up... Other than that, settle for a 520i, we've got one in the family and its faster than a Corolla GUARANTEED!

Speed is not an issue for most X3 drivers (not for me anyway). They like a higher driving position, and a spacious car with more groundclearance. So a 520 doesn't tick those boxes, I'm afraid.

And talking about diesel-pollution, see this

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12481.php

[m_alnimah]

Originally Posted by Endre2

Speed is not an issue for most X3 drivers (not for me anyway). They like a higher driving position, and a spacious car with more groundclearance. So a 520 doesn't tick those boxes, I'm afraid.

And talking about diesel-pollution, see this

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12481.php

Let me clarify, by 520i i was talking about the engine which means that BMW should bring Petrol X3's into the UK and then people can buy the sDrive 20i or xDrive20i or xDrive28i or even the xDrive 35i...

[Portimao318]

OK. Didn't get that.
I have just bought a X3 with petrol engine 2.0i (184bph). I think than that's the same enigne as in your 520i, right?
I love this engine. No more diesel noise every morning at a cold start, and the car is really smooth with this engine (it's not a Ferrari, but still pretty quick). It doesn't need high revs at all.
It uses more fuel than a diesel , but I don't drive so much anymore (and petrolcars are much cheaper in taxes here).

[Peter_R]

Originally Posted by Endre2

Speed is not an issue for most X3 drivers (not for me anyway). They like a higher driving position, and a spacious car with more groundclearance. So a 520 doesn't tick those boxes, I'm afraid.

And talking about diesel-pollution, see this

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12481.php

Yes to some degree I agree. My top priority was the high up position that allowed me to get in and out of the vehicle without discomfort. Having had two major stomach operations, getting in and out my 2012 F31 320d Sport had become a problem, so I had to get rid of it.

I drove the X3 xDrive20d M Sport and found that it lacked the acceleration (not the speed) I wanted, so it had to be either the 30d or 35d. The 30d was an excellent compromise of comfort and power married to decent fuel consumption and when one came up I jumped at the chance.

Here is an interesting review of the Euro 6 compliant X3 from Alpina.

http://www.cityam.com/216884/bmw-alpina-xd3

[Peter_R]

For thread completion, below is the link for the latest emission regulations.

https://www.theaa.com/motoring_advic...standards.html

[clivem2]

With the news about VW frigging their software to pass US emissions tests you've got to wonder what other manufacturers are doing. What VW did is fairly obvious trick to apply. It may be that with BMW Comfort mode is default so is the one where the tests are applied or do the cars have to pass emissions tests in all driving modes?

[Tjalle]

There has been a slight decline in diesels during the past year. "VW" will change that - there will now be a steep decline.
Those of you in the UK waiting for petrols - now they will come.
In about 5 years - or so - BMW will introduce its hybrid systems on most vehicles. eAWD for transverse engines. Traditional AWD for longitudinal.

[Peter_R]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

There has been a slight decline in diesels during the past year. "VW" will change that - there will now be a steep decline.

Not in the UK my friend. The average "UK Joe Bloggs" (not people on this forum) does not take any notice and thinks that the USA is on another planet.

[PX3]

Originally Posted by ianfp

There is and will be a lot more to the whole diesel debate than currently reported in the media. As much as I like my diesel, I hope there is a petrol X3 choice when I come to change my car.

Plus 1

[clivem2]

All the bad publicity is bound to have an impact on diesel sales even in Europe. I'm not convinced the impact will be huge in Europe. I've just heard that the manipulation VW did was to turn off the Urea being added to the fuel. If this is all VW did then I can see that it won't impact European cars. Mostly European cars don't use this method as we have higher NOX limits (is this mostly due to California?).

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clivem2

All the bad publicity is bound to have an impact on diesel sales even in Europe. I'm not convinced the impact will be huge in Europe. I've just heard that the manipulation VW did was to turn off the Urea being added to the fuel. If this is all VW did then I can see that it won't impact European cars. Mostly European cars don't use this method as we have higher NOX limits (is this mostly due to California?).

Just being announced that up to 11 million diesels could be under investigation, broadens the fiasco outside of the US.

HighlandPete