[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by mcorliss

It's simple: the X3 like most AWD vehicle are best with snow tires in the winter.

It depends on what type of winter weather you get - in South East UK we rarely get more than a few days of snow and it has been pretty much warmer than the magic 7°C often quoted - which makes the "summer" tyres better.

[DonC]

It happens - you get caught in a situation that wasn't fortold. I frequently drive over mountian passes that get snow so I am more confident with snow tires. I also slow down...

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

trying to recall how many miles I have done on sheet ice in UK - I don't think it is very many

It might be ten yards that will do the trick.

Packed and polished snow is more often more slippery than pure ice, I know.

And the situation might be like this:



If that happens only once a year and you have a choice not to drive at all on a day like that, then of course dedicated winter tyres are not useful.

But if you might have a day like that and you must drive, then it is up to risk calculation if it is worth buying dedicated winter tyres or not.

In general I would say if anyone thinks summer tyres will not be enough and thinks installing all season tyres, then he/she would be better of with dedicated winter tyres and summer tyres.

There is more cost and effort (changing tyres), but that way you will maximize driving pleasure and grip during summer and during winter.

[HighlandPete]

This is our motoring press....

WHATCAR Wrote:
The best 4x4s for winter
Friday, January 18, 2013

Best 4x4s for winter
Top four-wheel-drive cars on sale
From Fiat Panda 4x4 to Range Rover

The best 4x4s take the worry out of winter driving, whether they're a family-friendly seven-seater or a compact model that will fit into the tightest parking space.

We've rounded up our favourite four-wheel-drive cars, all of which are equipped to deal with the worst the weather can throw at them. Here's our guide to the best 4x4s for winter.

I could see no mention of tyres in the article that follows. They include the X3 which we know in the UK typically comes with HP summer tyres.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/the-...-winter/264926

So what help is an article like that. I suggest a false sense of security for winter driving.

I'll be writing them....

HighlandPete

[sfax]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

This is our motoring press....



I could see no mention of tyres in the article that follows. They include the X3 which we know in the UK typically comes with HP summer tyres.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-news/the-...-winter/264926

So what help is an article like that. I suggest a false sense of security for winter driving.

I'll be writing them....

HighlandPete

That is unbelievably bad. Can't see if the RR in the snow has winters but at least you'd be very comfortable as your wheels span in the snow and you went nowhere fast

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by Rodion

It might be ten yards that will do the trick.

which is more than a lot of people seem to leave for braking distance – you can always do “what ifs”. What if that idiot who pulled out of me the other day had done so when I was 10 yards closer – I would have hit them instead of almost hitting them (and it wasn't a cold day)

Originally Posted by Rodion

And the situation might be like this:

In several decades of driving – I have yet to see anything like that on the UK roads, I would expect it to be due to flooding and freezing – in which case I'd find an alternative route.

Originally Posted by Rodion

But if you might have a day like that and you must drive, then it is up to risk calculation if it is worth buying dedicated winter tyres or not.

same if it is raining hard – which is probably more dangerous because people drive faster in rain than snow, but aquaplaning will get you unstuck just as much as snow. You have risks if you are on winter tyres – other drivers, over confidence.

Originally Posted by Rodion

In general I would say if anyone thinks summer tyres will not be enough and thinks installing all season tyres, then he/she would be better of with dedicated winter tyres and summer tyres.

My last car was a E83 X3 3.0D SE running on all season Pirelli Scorpion – which were more than adequate for the UK Snow and summer during the 5 years I had it (including trip to Cairngorms after heaviest snow for years).

Originally Posted by Rodion

There is more cost and effort (changing tyres), but that way you will maximize driving pleasure and grip during summer and during winter.

life is full of compromises – you adjust your driving to suit vehicle and conditions. But interestingly when it was -9°c the other morning I pushed it hard in sports mode without any sign of traction control kicking in.

If this year follows typical Winters around here (just North of London) – we might see another day where roads have snow on them (it had largely gone tonight) then it is spring

[MattUK]

Yes.. summer tyres and no problems at all.. happily driving past other BMW's that can't get up hills or down.. its great. I'm sure with Winter tyres it would be even better, but with careful driving, no issue.. its great! M3 in this weather meant I couldn't leave the house.. this is the reason I changed!

[noka]

Originally Posted by MattUK

...M3 in this weather meant I couldn't leave the house.. this is the reason I changed!

I took all my M cars out in New England Winters, after swapping Summer wheels/tires for Winter ones. With my C300 4Matic, I did fine with All-Seasons and I expect (hope) to do the same with the X3. We'll see.

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

In several decades of driving – I have yet to see anything like that on the UK roads, I would expect it to be due to flooding and freezing – in which case I'd find an alternative route.

For example this guy might think that dedicated winter tyres would've paid off in retrospect. Image from Brighton, yesterday:



And as I said, it is easier if you know you don't have to go out and drive if the weather is bad.

Also for me it was a surprise to see that you Britons actually close roads and highways because of snow. Then it is more understandable that one might try to make with summer tyres all year.

same if it is raining hard – which is probably more dangerous because people drive faster in rain than snow, but aquaplaning will get you unstuck just as much as snow. You have risks if you are on winter tyres – other drivers, over confidence.

Yes, for heavy rain, you are best off with good summer tyres. Not with all seasons... and rain with slush, you are best off with dedicated winter tyres, not with al seasons.

If overconfidence is something that should be concidered in these theories, then we can make traffic safer by installing a knife on the steering wheel, in the middle, pointing towards the driver...

My last car was a E83 X3 3.0D SE running on all season Pirelli Scorpion – which were more than adequate for the UK Snow and summer during the 5 years I had it (including trip to Cairngorms after heaviest snow for years).

Yes, adequate. But I would never be satisfied with "adequate" with an expensive and made to drive type of car. With cheap Dacia I can understand adequate.

life is full of compromises – you adjust your driving to suit vehicle and conditions. But interestingly when it was -9°c the other morning I pushed it hard in sports mode without any sign of traction control kicking in.

If this year follows typical Winters around here (just North of London) – we might see another day where roads have snow on them (it had largely gone tonight) then it is spring

Yes, full of compromises. I can understand driving all year round with good summer tyres, as they make the most of this car. And then just coping / not driving in wintery conditions. But all seasons is just something I do not understand in a vehicle like ours.

I read that last night, Norh of London, it was minus -11 Celsius. And I hope you do not crash you car



And I tried already in my last mail write more generally, not judging your choices per se. And still, in general, I do not think all seasons are good choice for our car. And I know all seasons, I have driven couple of months in Finnish winter with all season tyres and Volvo 240 (RWD). As well as summer of course.


And, with an expenive cars, why not use it to the max during summer and during winter?

Let's keep those savings to Dacia drivers

[Sco]

Well I bought the 2WD X3 on the basis that in the UK (London) there is generally one week in the year when you may encounter real winter weather. It is currently that week here and I have to say that it really struggles. Bambi on ice. Not sure which would make the bigger improvement, Winter tyres or xDrive.

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by Sco

Well I bought the 2WD X3 on the basis that in the UK (London) there is generally one week in the year when you may encounter real winter weather. It is currently that week here and I have to say that it really struggles. Bambi on ice. Not sure which would make the bigger improvement, Winter tyres or xDrive.

Proper winter tyres, trust me.

It is those four palm sized areas that makes all the controlling, I mean the contact surfaces of the tyres and road.

[cc3]

I live in SE England and have fitted Dunlop 3D's on existing rims. They make an enormous difference in the snow. I am also very impressed with the improved braking in wet weather. Well worth the money.

[clivem2]

I'm with MattUK. I used to have a 335i and couldn't get it off the drive in the snow. But....I know winter tyres are loads better in snow and the cold but so far this winter is a more typical UK winter than the last 2 years. I only have to cope with 3 or 4 days of snow. As I don't commute to work I can choose not to drive if conditions are really bad. I've seen comments about having a £40k car and being too stingy to pay for winter tyres and wheels. Yes it's partly cost but is hassle too. Also the £40k is the purchase price but if you sell it for £25k or £20k that actually makes the cost of winter tyres and wheels look pricey. If I lived in the highlands I would use winter tyres but in tropical Manchester I get get away with summer tyres, or I have so far.....

Maybe standard tyres in the UK should have an optimal operating envelope of say -5C to 25C.

[HighlandPete]

'Adequate' and 'compromise' seem to be the common thread in all winter tyre discusions in the UK across the forums, motor mags and blogs.

We seem to have a trait in the UK to "get by", rather than have the most appropriate, or the best.

What would change the opinion and focus the mind IMO, is if the insurance companies acted as they do in other countries where if involved in an accident and were found to be on inappropriate tyres for the conditions, there would be no pay out.

Also I sense many will buy expensive but questionable wheel "upgrades" (£1,000 - £2,000) without any complaint, then moan about the cost of winter tyres, which really do something positive for driving performance.

"None so fickle as folk."

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clivem2

Maybe standard tyres in the UK should have an optimal operating envelope of say -5C to 25C.

There are tyres in the All Season range which virtually do just that, they need to have the 'snowflake' symbol to work properly below the 7C threshold.

But we enter the problem of "jack of all trades, master of none". Summer and winter conditions really need different performance characteristics from the rubber compounds, tread patterns, blocks, sipes, etc.. Hence why it is best to have two wheel sets, anything else is really a compromise in virtually all conditions.

HighlandPete

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

There are tyres in the All Season range which virtually do just that, they need to have the 'snowflake' symbol to work properly below the 7C threshold.

My problem is that most of my winter driving is in the day time with temps often 7C or higher. What am I supposed to do - carry 4 wheels and tyres, stop and swap wheels when the temp drops? If the temp is 5C I don't believe there a massive sudden drop off in performance. In my situation I'm doing something like 5 or 10 hours driving per year where my summer tyres are compromised. If I lived in the Highlands, Scandinavia, southern Germany etc then the situation (and law in some cases) would require me to use winter tyres.

It's down to common sense and individual situations and the types of roads driven on. If I were doing one of my old jobs where I drove 30k miles per year and couldn't choose not to drive if the weather was poor, then I would use winter tyres.

Given the UK situation with flooding if might be wiser for me to invest in a high-level exhaust system! OK I'm being facetious but my point is that if we want insurance for all eventualities, we could end up with a long list of extras with the X3 equipped for everything from the outback to tundra with flooding in-between!

[buze]

Well, I have an axe, a saw and a shovel in the boot on my car ;-)

Seriously, I saw there are offers for a set of wheels (advertised as genuine BMW) with winter tyres for about 800 pounds, it doesn't seem THAT much of a bad deal to me...

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by buze

Well, I have an axe, a saw and a shovel in the boot on my car ;-)

Seriously, I saw there are offers for a set of wheels (advertised as genuine BMW) with winter tyres for about 800 pounds, it doesn't seem THAT much of a bad deal to me...

Are the tools for driving something to do with a life of crime? Eek!

£800 isn't bad at all, there's still the hassle though but if my usage were different it would be money well spent.

[Rogerbu]

We live on a hilly estate in the South of England. In the past without winter wheel/tyres on BMWs, Toyota & Hondas I often could not get off the estate in snow/ice.

I have the BMW 17 inch Pirelli winter wheels on at the moment. I was astounded how easily the car coped in the snow. More importantly I tried braking hard on ice (in a safe area) - the car just braked to a halt. no skidding at all - impressed.

Plus - The car is much quieter on the 17 inch Pirelli winter tyres than it is on the 19 inch staggered tyres in summer (both RFTs)

[cheesebag]

Rock hard pirelli run flats are coping brilliantly with the 10" plus of snow and now ice weve had around Staffs.

Certainly not justifying 2K plus for a few weeks a year.

[Booty]

Good comparison video for snow conditions!

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by Rodion

For example this guy might think that dedicated winter tyres would've paid off in retrospect. Image from Brighton, yesterday:

Antidotes and isolated examples, as compelling as they appear at first glance, don't really give compelling evidence – it might have been better if he was driving more appropriately and slower, or maybe a kid stepped into the road. We can spend all days building things fitting into the narrative fallacy and prove nothing.

Originally Posted by Rodion

Also for me it was a surprise to see that you Britons actually close roads and highways because of snow. Then it is more understandable that one might try to make with summer tyres all year.

it's about cost and practicality – we don't invest in lots of clearing equipment or tyres that don't give sensible gains.

Originally Posted by Rodion

Yes, for heavy rain, you are best off with good summer tyres. Not with all seasons... and rain with slush, you are best off with dedicated winter tyres, not with al seasons.

And since beginning of December I have spent considerably more hours driving in heavy rain at above 5°C than I have on snow & ice. It is pretty much the same for most winters in South/East UK I can recall over last few decades.

Originally Posted by Rodion

If overconfidence is something that should be concidered in these theories, then we can make traffic safer by installing a knife on the steering wheel, in the middle, pointing towards the driver...

Either overconfidence in brakes or just total ignorance of braking distances is something to consider – I am not sure I want the average tailgater to feel they can push to limit in such conditions

Originally Posted by Rodion

Yes, adequate. But I would never be satisfied with "adequate" with an expensive and made to drive type of car. With cheap Dacia I can understand adequate.

Doesn't that really depend on which meaning of adequate you pick – it can mean only just, but it also means fully sufficient, suitable. Basically I use adequate because I never felt tyres were unable to cope with demands I put them under, but I am not excited enough by them to judge further.

By your inference you are suggesting a Dacia isn't made to be driven which I find strange - maybe not for fun

Originally Posted by Rodion

Yes, full of compromises. I can understand driving all year round with good summer tyres, as they make the most of this car. And then just coping / not driving in wintery conditions. But all seasons is just something I do not understand in a vehicle like ours.

I have changed a E83 on All weathers for F25 on Summers (both 3.0d SE), the F25 has much better ride and a better engine – but I think the E83 drove better (but only put 4K on)

Originally Posted by Rodion

I read that last night, Norh of London, it was minus -11 Celsius. And I hope you do not crash you car

No – it was around -6°C to -4°C when I was out (and I had foot planted to floor a couple of times with no sign of traction control kicking in)

Originally Posted by Rodion

And I know all seasons, I have driven couple of months in Finnish winter with all season tyres and Volvo 240 (RWD). As well as summer of course.

not all tyres claimed to be same are equal – but more importantly not all countries winters are the same – South/East UK winters are usually warmish and wet. I doubt I would be running on summers if I lived somewhere where it was much colder during winter.

Originally Posted by Rodion

And, with an expenive cars, why not use it to the max during summer and during winter?

The chance of pushing cars to limit around here are slim to none and it might be argued if you want to push something to limit then there are better choices.

I am sure we can keep this up all year - but I don't intend to