[Nahoa]

Just pulled off the 309's and put on Pirelli Sotto Zero II's on some Enkei rims (following the lead of others here).

The OEM 309's with Conti SSR's had heavy where on the inside and cupping on the outside on the front; just the cupping on the back. I'd noticed road noise, but hadn't realized how significant it was until I drove the Winter tires. Expecting them to be louder; found them essentially silent compared to the 309's with the Conti Summers.

What should I be looking at here? Alignment off? Something else?

Anyone else experienced this?

The ride has always had a bit of "light chop" to it since day one. Figured it was something to do with xDrive or the suspension, but figured it was normal since it was always there. Y'all have that?

I have DHP and drive almost exclusively in the Sport setting.

[Nahoa]

Anyone else approaching 15k miles or so? How are your tires?

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Just pulled off the 309's and put on Pirelli Sotto Zero II's on some Enkei rims (following the lead of others here).

The OEM 309's with Conti SSR's had heavy where on the inside and cupping on the outside on the front; just the cupping on the back. I'd noticed road noise, but hadn't realized how significant it was until I drove the Winter tires. Expecting them to be louder; found them essentially silent compared to the 309's with the Conti Summers.

What should I be looking at here? Alignment off? Something else? ...

Heavy wear on outer edges usually means too much aggressive driving on a car with poor steering geometry and possibly too low tire pressure. “Heavy wear” on the INSIDE usually indicates an alignment problem (typically too much camber) but can also be caused by improper toe-in. If the tire is out of round or imbalanced, and cupping is already evident, there’s really nothing that can be done to correct the situation short of replacing the tires.

Cupping is usually caused by worn suspension bushings, tie-rod ends, or worn dampers which seems very unlikely on a new vehicle. However, cupping can also be caused by poor wheel balance, out of round tires and even improper tire pressure (typically too high). Over inflated tires with a lightly loaded vehicle can cause cupping as well as a “choppy” ride (it’s common on pick up trucks that are driven empty, but with the tire pressures adjusted for a full load).

For the X3, tire pressures about 2 or 3 psi higher than the factory recommendations (considering the actual load being used), maintaining any recommended front/back differential, seems to work well for normal “sporty” driving.

At 6k miles my tire (Pirelli P7 all season RFT) wear is pretty even, no cupping at all, no edge wear, slightly higher center rib wear (expected because of running at factory spec. + 3 psi pressures).

[Nahoa]

Thanks much, Louts.

High pressure causes cupping on the outer edges? That's counterintuitive to me. I tend to go high on the tire pressure. Perhaps I went too high on this vehicle at the same time the alignment was off?

I'm back in to the shop next Friday to check the alignment -- they were all backed up and couldn't get it done the 3 days they had my car this week. Am I likely to destroy the new Winter tires in a week?

If the OEM setup wasn't balanced well, to the point it contributed to the cupping and the slight ride feel, is it likely to have been enough to damage other components over that 15k? Anything in particular to have them look at?

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Thanks much, Louts.

High pressure causes cupping on the outer edges? That's counterintuitive to me. I tend to go high on the tire pressure. Perhaps I went too high on this vehicle at the same time the alignment was off?

I'm back in to the shop next Friday to check the alignment -- they were all backed up and couldn't get it done the 3 days they had my car this week. Am I likely to destroy the new Winter tires in a week?

If the OEM setup wasn't balanced well, to the point it contributed to the cupping and the slight ride feel, is it likely to have been enough to damage other components over that 15k? Anything in particular to have them look at?

Very high tire pressure reduces sidewall compliance and can cause the tire to bounce slightly (which will lead to cupping), but it’s much more likely that the tire was a little out of round or not perfectly balanced to begin with. Pressures high enough to cause cupping will usually also cause excessive center rib wear. Since you’re seeing edge wear it sounds like it’s more likely an alignment issue. The X3 suspension components, especially the lower control arm bushings LOOK very rugged, so shouldn’t be worn enough in 15K miles to be causing any problems, but who knows?

Sounds like the place to start is a careful check of alignment settings now that the new tires are installed. If the alignment is OK, you probably just got a set of poor tires. Poor alignment or bad tires won’t usually cause any suspension component damage, the exception being VERY out of balance tires causing excessive damper wear.

[Radioactive]

It has been my experience that certain tires seem to be prone to cupping notwithstanding the problems that Lotus mentioned. Guessing what tire would be the culprit; good luck. But as Lotus stated, once it's gone to the dark side, there's no getting them back. Start that "sinking fund" now for next spring.

For what it's worth, I never have been a Conti fan. The one's I've had wore like shit and handled even worse.

[Nahoa]

Similar opinion on the Conti's from day one.

Curious to see what they find mext week. Will be disturbed if all looks good.

Thanks folks.

[Lotus7]

Unfortunately, if you use TireRack reviews as any indicator, not many people like the Conti Contact 2 or Contact 3 SSR's. Most of the TireRack reviews are extremely negative with people complaining of excessive noise, rough ride, very short tread life (some as short as 12K miles). The most troubling seems to be complaints of sidewall "bubbles".

The UK TyreReviews feedback seems to be more mixed, with several owners giving the SSR's good reviews. It may be a situation of poor quality control by Conti, or just different levels of expectation.

Or maybe a "tyre" always performs better than a "tire".

My personal experience with Conti's has also been mixed. I had a set on a VW Scirocco (that were actually manufactured in South Africa!) that were great. Very sticky, rode well (but noisy), and lasted for 3OK very hard miles. I also had a set on a 1999 Audi A4 Quattro that were terrible: They had minimal lateral and longitudinal traction, were very noisy and were "poor tracking" on a smooth road requiring constant, small steering corrections when you just wanted to go straight. Replaced them after 1 year with German manufactured Goodyear GSD3 F1s, and the difference transformed the car.

[Radioactive]

I wonder if different driving conditions in the UK may lead to different views. I just know the next time I get OEM Conti's, I'm going to get a magic marker and change the "i" to a "y". That should do it!

Lotus7, I'm getting a little chuckle (in a good way) reading your posts, which by the way are superb, after I just finished reading a paper entitled "Spatial Thinking with a Difference: An Unorthodox Treatise on the Mind of the Geologist" by geologist/novelist Sarah Andrews. Compares the thinking process of a geologist with linear thinkers such engineers. Quite interesting.

[sfax]

We can't hear our Contis above the noise of our diesel engines in the UK

I've been quite happy with mine but my experience and ability to assess tyres (always with a y) is limited. I'm learning though and now with winter Dunlops to contrast, I'll be more discerning

[Nahoa]

Here it is with the Enkei-SottoZero Winter setup. Works for inexpensive rims, but looks better on other color X3s.

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Radioactive

I wonder if different driving conditions in the UK may lead to different views. I just know the next time I get OEM Conti's, I'm going to get a magic marker and change the "i" to a "y". That should do it!

Lotus7, I'm getting a little chuckle (in a good way) reading your posts, which by the way are superb, after I just finished reading a paper entitled "Spatial Thinking with a Difference: An Unorthodox Treatise on the Mind of the Geologist" by geologist/novelist Sarah Andrews. Compares the thinking process of a geologist with linear thinkers such engineers. Quite interesting.

Radioactive,
Thanks for your kind words.

I love the way these forum threads can evolve. I also love the range of interests of the people who contribute to this forum in particular. Without sounding elitist, it seems that people who own, or are seriously interested in X3s are generally intelligent, supportive and amazingly respectful of each other, especially if one compares the postings here to almost any other open automotive forum. Here, slight deviations off topic are well tolerated and seemingly welcomed. It makes for interesting reading and shows that most of us have interests and expertise that extends well beyond the world of vehicles.

Just today, we’ve gone from cupped tire wear to discussing the merits of Continental tires specifically to “Spatial Thinking with a Difference”.

The paper you mentioned sounds interesting. I’ve always been interested in the cognitive process and with an undergraduate background in electronics engineering and physics as my graduate training; I certainly fall into the “linear spatial thinking” box. I’ve been amazed and sometimes astounded by the (often “non-linear”) creative process that people like classical music composers use, which is no easer to comprehend by “linear thinkers” than it is for most composers to comprehend how to use multivariable calculus to analyze a vector field (of a cupped toriodal surface). (Had to bring it back to the original topic.)

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Here it is with the Enkei-SottoZero Winter setup. Works for inexpensive rims, but looks better on other color X3s.

Really like the look of those wheels. The slight twist of the spokes adds a lot of interest and character, and the deep concave shape of the center part of the hub is elegant. Very nice choice.

[LEDZEP]

Originally Posted by Lotus7

Really like the look of those wheels. The slight twist of the spokes adds a lot of interest and character, and the deep concave shape of the center part of the hub is elegant. Very nice choice.

+1 : Those are attractive wheels.

But to the OP issue... Are you talking about 'cupping' or 'feathering'? I always understood cupping to be a "whole tire" issue not and inside or outside one... looking at the tire straight on, it would appear as if the tread sagged in the center. If you were to lay a straight object like a ruler across the top of the tire, there would be a noticable arc shaped gap. Is my understanding off (could very well be). If the tread on either the inside or outside is wearing in a pattern that resembles a circular saw blade.... I've always known that to be "feathering".

FWIW, my '06 3 Series came with Bridgestone RFT's that were horrible and feathered very badly. BMW and Bridgestone *finally* attmitted fault and offered a replacement program.

The one thing that has always preturbed me about auto makers is the "we cover everything in our warranty... oh, except the tires... which by the way we get to choose for you". As much as I abhore regulation, I wouldn't mind seeing a reg that requires auto manufacturers to cover tire issues for at least the first year or 15k of a vehicle. I'll bet then they'd do a better job selecting the vendors.

[Nahoa]

Hmmm, I think feathering. The service guy called it cupping, but it sounds more like what you called feathering. On the outside edge of the tires you can see alternating lighter and darker sections indicating higher and lower sections of the edge tread section/pattern.

They don't cover the tires, nor do they cover fixing the alignment issues if they delivered it to you out of alignment and/or with improperly balanced wheels. Not a huge cost itself, but the set of tires it seems to have trashed is more significant.

[Nahoa]

Surprised engineers are so often used to exemplify linear thinking. Engineering demands a nonlinear, artistic approach for effective problem solving and design. Linear processes exist, but they're tools to move from one stage to another, to consistently manipulate data allowing for an alternate vantage point setting the stage for creative thought. There is a certain breadth to the term "engineering" that's misleading. Interestingly, society seems to consider an architect as clearly more creative than an engineer. "Architect" having the same range as "engineer" but generally viewed to be on the creative rather than process side. An architect cranking out standard highway overpasses using tables and standards established over decades and modified by others to accommodate new understandings of such things as earthquakes and fatigue is not being particularly creative and proceeds quite linearly. An architect designing a monument, an iconic bridge, or perhaps a specialty home is likely operating in a very different manner, but using linear processes as tools along the way. "Engineering" spans a similar spectrum.

And, few people encounter, tackle, or even realize how nonlinearity affects our existence more than engineers. To pitch them up as the poster children for linearity is amusing.

[Radioactive]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Linear processes exist, but they're tools to move from one stage to another, to consistently manipulate data allowing for an alternate vantage point setting the stage for creative thought.

Sorry if I ruffled some feathers here. It was not my intention or to highjack the thread. Merely an observation on how by brain has been taught to problem solve as a geologist verse other professions. As you mentioned above you take linear step to move from one stage to the next. We on the other hand tend to work ass backwards. Looking at a whole bunch of stuff, sometimes in no particular order and work backwards. Not at all saying one is better than the next. As a world we need them all. Just observing the differences in process. Drives my retired Lockheed engineer father nuts.

Reading it may explain how we work.
http://www.sarahandrews.net/spatialthinking.htm

Again, meant no harm. I really don't think you would want to drive an X3 designed by a geologist.

[Nahoa]

No ruffled feathers. Interesting subject. Apologies if I came across argumentative. Not my intent. That said, engineers often don't move linearly one step to the next. That's a stereotype of the profession focused on those more of what I'd call a technician vice an engineer. Engineering is a distinctly nonlinear process involving creativity and inspiration. Processes might tee up data, but what's done with that data is creative. It is really very poorly understood. Consider Apple and engineering. Was engineering the iPhone a linear process? Absolutely not. And it was engineers who dd that and so many other revolutionary things on our world.

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Hmmm, I think feathering. The service guy called it cupping, but it sounds more like what you called feathering. On the outside edge of the tires you can see alternating lighter and darker sections indicating higher and lower sections of the edge tread section/pattern.

They don't cover the tires, nor do they cover fixing the alignment issues if they delivered it to you out of alignment and/or with improperly balanced wheels. Not a huge cost itself, but the set of tires it seems to have trashed is more significant.

I've always thought of, and called that sort of wear pattern "cupping or scalloping" I'm thinking of the sort of wear in the second from the last in this set of illustrations. Maybe regional semantics, but whatever it's called it's not good. "Feathering" is a lateral saw-tooth pattern caused by excessive toe-in. In this case a picture is worth a dozen posts!

[Radioactive]

Brought to the world by a visionary engineer with a sliderule.

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Radioactive

Brought to the world by visionary engineer with a slideruler.

A sliderule and an unlimited budget!

[Radioactive]

Originally Posted by Lotus7

I've always thought of, and called that sort of wear pattern "cupping or scalloping" I'm thinking of the sort of wear in the second from the last in this set of illustrations. Maybe regional semantics, but whatever it's called it's not good. "Feathering" is a lateral saw-tooth pattern caused by excessive toe-in. In this case a picture is worth a dozen posts!

Here in the west, that is what I have experienced as "cupping". You could run your hand over the tire and easily feel the "cups".