[Alpine tourist]

I tried out the new BMW app - internet radio works fine on iPhone, audio out into F25 does not.

Normally I just click "accept" to the terms and conditions, however this app has an interesting section:

"5. Collection & Use Of Customer Data

....may collect location data and other information about how you or a driver of your vehicle accelerates, brakes, changes gear, engine RPM, seat belt use....."

They go on to say "BMW will not sell, trade or rent your information", albeit location info is available to law enforcement agencies.

Is this the start of a car black box? Anyone out there have views or opinions about this?

[sfax]

I think this is just the tip of the ice berg. Insurance companies would pay a lot of money for this information. Your insurance premium could become directly linked to how you drive, how long you drive for, what time you drive and where you leave your car and for how long. Speeding fines will be debited from your account before you even realise you've broken the speed limit. Enjoy driving while you still can!

[ksoze]

This data collection already exists in the car as you know and is accessible by the dealer. This app does add the capability to send that same data to BMW in a more real time manner, which is a little disconcerting. I do not believe there anything preventing BMW from downloading and using the data during a dealer visit, so this app simply makes that easier.

As an aside, some navigation/traffic software also uses data like this to enhance the data being given right back to you. Traffic info is much better when using real time data and aggregating it to your car.

[Nahoa]

Where a person's vehicle is located and information like their speed do not constitute private information -- both are out in public and observable by anyone with a view. The only thing new here is how this information is being observed, not that it's being observed. There's no violation of privacy, in fact, compared to the person standing on the corner and watching another drive by, the person using the app actually has more control in that they can choose not to use the app. One cannot choose not to have someone standing on the corner with their dog watching people drive by.

[sfax]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Where a person's vehicle is located and information like their speed do not constitute private information -- both are out in public and observable by anyone with a view. The only thing new here is how this information is being observed, not that it's being observed. There's no violation of privacy, in fact, compared to the person standing on the corner and watching another drive by, the person using the app actually has more control in that they can choose not to use the app. One cannot choose not to have someone standing on the corner with their dog watching people drive by.

But one can choose not to have the man and his dog follow you 24/7 and know absolutely everywhere you have been and at what time.

Control of this information has huge implications for privacy IMO. Some examples: you're placed near a murder scene and are investigated; you didn't declare insomnia on your medical insurance and the insurance company uses this data to prove you were driving round in the middle of the night and voids your claim for something that has nothing to do with insomnia; you're a celeb having an affair and your driving data is stolen or leaked to a tabloid newspaper. Do you trust BMW to keep your driving data secure?

And the argument, well if you've done nothing wrong doesn't stack up. Throw in a flawed police investigation and a contaminated DNA sample and you're on trial by circumstance

[Nahoa]

When you're in public, you're in public. The expectation of being privately in public baffles me. That you leave your home and go someplace is not private. Whether you eat cheerios in your home at 0730, is private. If you walk to the park and eat them, it's not.

I don't worry about trusting BMW with keeping my driving data secure because I have no reasonable expectation that my visit to the grocery store on Thursday be kept secret. I was in public and easily a hundred people could have seen me there, the security cameras recorded me there, and my points card and credit cards marked my presence there. Worse, when I stopped for sushi on the way to the grocery store (I was hungry), the sushi restaurant also kept video of me and anyone I dined with there. I chose to be in their place and I have no right to privacy there.

We don't live in little "privacy bubbles" that travel with us everywhere.

This all said, it's a good thing that BMW has promised they don't share the data. It's probably in their interest to keep that promise if they intend to keep selling cars with widgets.

In the end, I'm most worried about them throwing stupid advertisements in my face because the computer knows the car has half a tank and the NAV knows there's a BP station at the next exit -- not that BMW data on the location of my vehicle is going to snowball into a false conviction.

[sfax]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

When you're in public, you're in public. The expectation of being privately in public baffles me. That you leave your home and go someplace is not private. Whether you eat cheerios in your home at 0730, is private. If you walk to the park and eat them, it's not.

I don't worry about trusting BMW with keeping my driving data secure because I have no reasonable expectation that my visit to the grocery store on Thursday be kept secret. I was in public and easily a hundred people could have seen me there, the security cameras recorded me there, and my points card and credit cards marked my presence there. Worse, when I stopped for sushi on the way to the grocery store (I was hungry), the sushi restaurant also kept video of me and anyone I dined with there. I chose to be in their place and I have no right to privacy there.

We don't live in little "privacy bubbles" that travel with us everywhere.

This all said, it's a good thing that BMW has promised they don't share the data. It's probably in their interest to keep that promise if they intend to keep selling cars with widgets.

In the end, I'm most worried about them throwing stupid advertisements in my face because the computer knows the car has half a tank and the NAV knows there's a BP station at the next exit -- not that BMW data on the location of my vehicle is going to snowball into a false conviction.

Struggling to make my point here but I'll try one last time and then we'll have to agree to disagree.

I see 1000s cars as i walk through London every day. These cars are out in the open, in public if you will, but I don't remember most of them. I don't write down details of them. I don't know who owns the car. I don't where it started its journey or what its destination will be. I don't know its average speed or how often it has broken the speed limit. Most of this additional information is private. It is in no way public.

Now if BMW's database is hacked, if an employee of BMW with this information on his laptop has his laptop stolen, if a BMW employee simply sells this information, there is a potential problem.

If you are happy with all this information becoming public then why not publish your complete car data after you have a year's worth in your new X3? I'm sure local burglars will be very pleased with the easy pickings as they see that you and the wife spend each and every Wednesday night at the local Bridge club.

I know the IT industry very well and i have worked closely with Information Security Officers and consultants who are paid a lot of money by companies to try to ensure the information they hold about their clients and customers is kept confidential and secure. Even the best companies aren't risk free and can never be. For example, the US government certainly isn't risk free with respect to very sensitive information about its armed forces. Our government is just as bad with ministers losing laptops and documents containing very sensitive information

[Nahoa]

Perhaps where we disagree is more between the concept of a right to certain things being private and it being good and appropriate for a company to protect those things they've "observed" in whatever fashion.

I very much agree with the latter.

I don't agree -- so we may need to agree to disagree -- that something like the speed of your car is private. Your car and it's behavior are in public and legally observable by anyone who cares to look.

Also, with the app, we choose whether to use it or not. And that's good in that if one views privacy as you do, they can opt out of it.

The burglar and bridge night thing puts false blame on this system we're talking about here -- the burglars can just sit outside, watch you and learn the same thing. That risk already exists for all of us.

[sfax]

Originally Posted by Nahoa

Perhaps where we disagree is more between the concept of a right to certain things being private and it being good and appropriate for a company to protect those things they've "observed" in whatever fashion.

I very much agree with the latter.

I don't agree -- so we may need to agree to disagree -- that something like the speed of your car is private. Your car and it's behavior are in public and legally observable by anyone who cares to look.

Also, with the app, we choose whether to use it or not. And that's good in that if one views privacy as you do, they can opt out of it.

The burglar and bridge night thing puts false blame on this system we're talking about here -- the burglars can just sit outside, watch you and learn the same thing. That risk already exists for all of us.

Yes, true, a burglar could spend weeks staking you out and then following your car, but that wouldn't represent a very good return on the proceeds of the burglary against the time he would have to spend. He'd make more money working in McDonalds. However, give him a USB stick with 1000s of drivers and their respective detailed movements and he could turn a tidy profit in low risk, no-one's at home burglaries.

What I'm trying to draw attention to is the potential for misuse of this information, or perhaps usage that you weren't aware when you signed up, or even just when you bought the car.

Are you sure you can choose not to record this information? Or are you just turning off the application that views the information but your car is still recording it?

Re. speed of the car, the majority of cars break the speed limit on the UK's motorways, and yet it's against law. All of these drivers would not really want their statistics disclosed to their respective insurance companies because their premiums would increase. Also, you might think twice about ever speeding if there was a chance you could be retrospectively prosecuted based on the data recorded by your own car. There is legal precedent for this in the UK where someone was prosecuted for dangerous driving for filming his Porsche doing over 100mph and rather stupidly posting it on YouTube