[buze]

Originally Posted by Booty

Good comparison video for snow conditions!

I agree, I passed the videos to my wife, and she told me "what are we waiting for" ?

The BMW one is also very good, as it compares two X3s (I'm sure it's been posted)

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by buze

I agree, I passed the videos to my wife, and she told me "what are we waiting for" ?

The BMW one is also very good, as it compares two X3s (I'm sure it's been posted)

That seems to be a pure marketing video for BMW selling winter wheel & tyre sets.

So you can't drive or brake as well on summer tyres - no surprise there but all they are showing is the summer tyred X3 being driven beyond it's limits.

Pulling away from stationary at the start of the video - the driver gave the summer car far to much welly, it performed like my old RWD 335i. My summer tyred X3 manages far better.

As for cornering the summer X3 was again being driven too fast but actually coped quite well, a few mph slower and it would have been quite well behaved.

As for braking the summer car did better than I expected but if you are driving slower in the first place braking isn't such a dramatic issue.

If I were driving on snow like that for a big chunk of the winter I would get winter tyres. Context is everything.

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

I am sure we can keep this up all year - but I don't intend to

I would say we can keep this up all winter...

I think we both have made our points.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Rodion

I would say we can keep this up all winter...

I think we both have made our points.

I think the important point to take away is that the environment anyone drives in colours their thinking. Everyone can make their own decision based upon their driving profile and local typical conditions.

[plymjack]

Having driven across Southern England last week and down to Austria over the weekend then it is clear winter tyres are not a marketing ploy. The differences are clear and even just in slush type conditions the benefits were obvious. in the more wintery weather they soon become essential.
In the south west UK where we live the seasonal average is only just 7degC and on that basis and for the added benefits we are going to fit winter tyres on our other car also.

[cooldude00]

just from my perspective living in Berkshire with my x3 fitted with winters tyres...

after a few days.. i thought we were done with the snow... had the opp to drove both my cars this morning -

x3 - no fuss with turning, braking or moving..
cayman on summer tyres - out of the garage and immediately started sliding.. probs with braking.. on the same road that the x3 had just been on..

for the 1500 quid spent.. well worth it

[clivem2]

Clearly people who drive over snow & ice regularly have a strong case for winter tyres. Those who don't, not surprisingly don't accept what seems to be a barrage of opinion that winter tyres are a must.

I wonder if there's a generational thing here too. In the 80's the toughest car I drove in poor weather was a BMW 318iS (E30), this had no DSC/Traction Control and no ABS - really no driver aids, yes it was tail-happy and in poor weather you had to drive it very smoothly, light of all the controls including the steering wheel. Even on wet roundabouts in 20C most RWD cars were a real handful, so very different from today when you can boot a car in almost any situation. Winter tyres were pretty much unheard of in the UK in those days.

Are drivers who've grown up with all the electronic gizmos more demanding of winter tyres?

[cheesebag]

Originally Posted by clivem2

Are drivers who've grown up with all the electronic gizmos more demanding of winter tyres?

i think so.... Stonnall, near Walsall was like an ice rink this morning but I had no problems manouvering around stuck drivers.

[Rodion]

My first car was 1981 Passat with carburetor and no electric assistance whatsoever. I have had also a bunch of RWD Volvos from 80's, ie. no assistance.

I have driven trucks from the 70's with summer tyres on them while plowing snow off the road with the truck.

I would say I am not used to electric help.

That is why I know how important it is to have good tyres, whether summer ones or winter ones. I know that even with electric help you simply cannot override the laws of physics.

That is also why I always buy the "test winner" tyres, even though they are maybe a bit expensive. I know there might be sudden situation when I need all the help from these rubber rings and then couple of hundred euros here and there doesn't matter. Especially if my wife or offspring is in the car as well.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Rodion

My first car was 1981 Passat with carburetor and no electric assistance whatsoever. I have had also a bunch of RWD Volvos from 80's, ie. no assistance.

I have driven trucks from the 70's with summer tyres on them while plowing snow off the road with the truck.

I would say I am not used to electric help.

That is why I know how important it is to have good tyres, whether summer ones or winter ones. I know that even with electric help you simply cannot override the laws of physics.

That is also why I always buy the "test winner" tyres, even though they are maybe a bit expensive. I know there might be sudden situation when I need all the help from these rubber rings and then couple of hundred euros here and there doesn't matter. Especially if my wife or offspring is in the car as well.

I have no doubt about the need for winter tyres in Finland. In the UK the need depends much more on location and driving conditions normally experienced. If we then go a little south, say the south of France, would you recommend winter tyres for driving around Nice? What about the south of Italy? It's not possible to give a blanket recommendation for everyone in all countries.

There must be some folks who've never driven a car without electrical assistance. In countries such as England where winters are not usually severe, maybe these newer drivers haven't had the opportunity to practice with such basic cars. Hence my thought that they are more inclined to use winter tyres. This is not meant as a slight on anyone, I would have loved to have used electric gizmos in the 70's and 80's.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clivem2

I wonder if there's a generational thing here too. In the 80's the toughest car I drove in poor weather was a BMW 318iS (E30), this had no DSC/Traction Control and no ABS - really no driver aids, yes it was tail-happy and in poor weather you had to drive it very smoothly, light of all the controls including the steering wheel. Even on wet roundabouts in 20C most RWD cars were a real handful, so very different from today when you can boot a car in almost any situation. Winter tyres were pretty much unheard of in the UK in those days.

Are drivers who've grown up with all the electronic gizmos more demanding of winter tyres?

I was driving E12, E28 & E30 models back in the 1970/80s and they were hopeless in snow and ice conditions. OK we got about, my E12 528 had (for the period) 'big' 195 section tyres. How tyres have moved on. My Triumph Dolomite Sprint had the original Dunlop SP Sport (aqua-jet) tyres fitted, that helped a bit, as an all weather tyre. Looking at the treads, they were something like modern day winter tyres, but still slid about on soft snow and ice.

My son has an E83 X3 3.0sd, fitted with 19" wheels and Pirelli P-Zero Rosso UHP tyres, any good for winter driving? Tyres get far too hard as the temperature cools down and obviously the performance on ice and snow is pretty poor. Has to drive bery gingerly and braking is all on a knife edge. It is all about the tyres.

By car is on Continental SportContact 3, again another UHP summer tyre, no way will they keep a 535i moving safely in snow or ice, they are like hard plastic once cold, like most summer tyres. From my experience over the years, it not about the electronics, it is more about tyres.

HP and UHP tyre technology has moved on in leaps and bounds in recent years and summer tyre performance is so good these days. But as tyre performance is a set of compromises anyway, winter performance takes a second place. It can, as winter tyre technology has also moved on in the HP winter segment. We can now have the best for the extremes of the seasons, but it has to be two differnt tyres, unless we compromise somewhere in the middle with All Season tyres. But even then we must choose carefully, or we still have too many compromises, both ends of the seasons. An M+S designation doesn't mean they are a decent performer in snow and on ice, just better than summer tyres.

HighlandPete

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by clivem2

I wonder if there's a generational thing here too. In the 80's the toughest car I drove in poor weather was a BMW 318iS (E30), this had no DSC/Traction Control and no ABS - really no driver aids, yes it was tail-happy and in poor weather you had to drive it very smoothly, light of all the controls including the steering wheel. Even on wet roundabouts in 20C most RWD cars were a real handful, so very different from today when you can boot a car in almost any situation. Winter tyres were pretty much unheard of in the UK in those days.

Are drivers who've grown up with all the electronic gizmos more demanding of winter tyres?

Possibly, I had been driving a decade+ before I first drove a car with ABS (first one with any real power as well) and it was another 6 years before I had a car with traction control (and I still generally dislike it when I activate then as it suggests I have misjudged/done something wrong )

Mind you old banger, snow and empty car-park/field was more fun back then.

[sfax]

The 7C is often quoted but if people took the time to evaluate the % improvement on wet or dry roads at 5C, they'd see that you'd get at least 10 times as much improvement by simply changing your summers more frequently (look up affect on stopping distance when a tyre is worn by x mm and compare legal mm tread to new tyre stopping distances)

They are however great on snow and ice and if you have to drive on snow regularly then it's worth it. Even with the recent snow here, I've counted 3 days over 2 years when there has been enough snow to present a problem so economically it's difficult to justify - but I still spent £2200 on a set, partly for driving in Europe, partly out of curiosity, and partly because I didn't want to be the plonker who got stuck in the snow in a 4x4!

You also need to factor in how long you'll keep the car, resale price of winter wheels, potential saving on not replacing summers as frequently, annual cost of swap/store and practical issues like winter tyres have low speed ratings and wear more than summers

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by sfax

The 7C is often quoted but if people took the time to evaluate ....

Advertisers must love the 7°C figure as they can make nice simple clear cut statement for what is a more complex issue and they can say it in such a way to make it seem you only need to consider that one aspect.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by JimmyTheHand

Advertisers must love the 7°C figure as they can make nice simple clear cut statement for what is a more complex issue and they can say it in such a way to make it seem you only need to consider that one aspect.

I agree it can appear too simplistic. But we do have to have some realistic data and the 7°C figure is the industry accepted figure where rubber compounds are in the changeover zone. BTW, that figure has been around for years, so not a new thing.

It is a bit like the official EU mpg tests, we have to have a baseline, even if there are so many variables, it looks far off the reality to most drivers.

HighlandPete

[clivem2]

Presumably a part of the complexity is that IF you can drive fast enough your tyres will heat up.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by clivem2

Presumably a part of the complexity is that IF you can drive fast enough your tyres will heat up.

On the other hand, if roads are damp at the lower temperatures there is a cooling factor, hence why summer tyres can also stay too cold to work effectively. They just don't warm up, so rubber stays hard and grip levels can stay reduced.

I've had an infra-red thermometer on my tyres, (330d and the 535i) it is surprising how close to ambient temperatures a tyre can be in colder temperatures, even if you work them hard.

HighlandPete

[rory breaker]

Sooooooo....has anyone actually driven on snow with their stock all seasons? Not talking summer tires, and not talking about the need for winter tires. Stock all seasons.

[02420X3]

Yes, I've driven on my all-seasons after 1-2" snowfall, and on plowed roads. With careful driving, they were fine. However, I need to be able to go at 2AM in a blizzard. I now have winter wheels with performance snows, as well as summer wheels with all-seasons.

[JimmyTheHand]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I agree it can appear too simplistic. But we do have to have some realistic data and the 7°C figure is the industry accepted figure where rubber compounds are in the changeover zone. BTW, that figure has been around for years, so not a new thing.

trouble is when some people read "changeover zone" they seem to understand it as cut-off point. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find people arguing about improvements for most winter days in South East UK less than difference they are willing to accept when buying cheaper summer tyres.

Is the 7°C accepted figure or a design figure – i.e. they make the tyres to become better at above/below 7°C because that is a good temperature for winter?

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

It is a bit like the official EU mpg tests, we have to have a baseline, even if there are so many variables, it looks far off the reality to most drivers.

HighlandPete

Simplistic & misleading baselines are something advertisers love – most people aren't cynical about them.


After a couple of weeks of low temperatures around here and snow on ground (but only a couple with any snow on roads) – we now have forecast for next week of rain and temperatures not dropping below 6°C after tomorrow morning (2°C being lowest then). Thus likely sensible driving will see no benefit of winter tyres around here.

[paulbaz]

Just to add my own experience.

I put BMW wheels and winter tyres (Pirelli Sotozeros) on the X3 in late November. The driving experience was very similar to my 19" wheels with summer tyres, although the ride was very slightly softer.

Anyway, over the past week or so we have had over a foot of snow, built up in three separate snowfalls.

The X3 has been brilliant in these conditions. Granted, I have driven more carefully, but in snow/ice/slush etc I have never felt so safe in a car.

Probably what has impressed me most is the need not to use momentum to get up snowy slopes etc. I have been able to stop going up a 1 in 3 incline and then move off again without any noticable wheelspin or slipping.

I am now a convert as far as winter tyres are concerned!

[clivem2]

That's the point. A foot of snow is ideal for winter tyres. 3cms of snow for half a day in Cheshire makes them virtually pointless. The climate where I live is not that extreme. If I could reasonably predict a foot of snow I'd be a convert too!