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      06-25-2012, 08:56 AM   #1
mooney058
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2.0d/3.0d reduced power output in Europe

For some stupid car tax reasons power output of 2.0d and 3.0d are reduced quite substantially (at least here in Belgium). Is it very difficult/expensive to reprogramme to the default power output (not talking about going further)? Anyone from Belgium who did it and has contacts? Dealer said they could not do it (that is, not allowed to do it). Very as some 10 km away from Brussels in another Belgian region the registration price is some 2000 EUR cheaper than in Brussels for the identical car ...
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      06-26-2012, 06:54 AM   #2
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What is the reduced power of 20d in Belgium?
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      06-26-2012, 09:14 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooney058
For some stupid car tax reasons power output of 2.0d and 3.0d are reduced quite substantially (at least here in Belgium). Is it very difficult/expensive to reprogramme to the default power output (not talking about going further)? Anyone from Belgium who did it and has contacts? Dealer said they could not do it (that is, not allowed to do it). Very as some 10 km away from Brussels in another Belgian region the registration price is some 2000 EUR cheaper than in Brussels for the identical car ...
Drive over to Germany and get it done at a dealership there.
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      06-26-2012, 09:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ural View Post
What is the reduced power of 20d in Belgium?
163 instead of 184 - this extra 21 horsepower is mostly at 3500 rpm - kind of situation when you want to overtake someone in a traffic or on a highway. Minus 21 horsepower is even less acceleration when you need it ...

will phone DE dealers to see if they could reprogramme the car back to factory settings.
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      06-26-2012, 12:34 PM   #5
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If you look at www.bmw.be it actually say 184HP.....and 380NM - just as in other european countries
Jens
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      06-26-2012, 12:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by JensM View Post
If you look at www.bmw.be it actually say 184HP.....and 380NM - just as in other european countries
Jens
http://www.bmw.be/be/nl/newvehicles/...ata/index.html
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      06-26-2012, 01:26 PM   #7
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In Brussels/FR region car registration tax is as follows (+/- few EUR)
X3 163 hp = 1250 EUR
X3 184 hp = 2500 EUR

In Flemish region X3 184 hp = 510 EUR


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Originally Posted by JensM View Post
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      06-26-2012, 01:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooney058 View Post
In Brussels/FR region car registration tax is as follows (+/- few EUR)
X3 163 hp = 1250 EUR
X3 184 hp = 2500 EUR

In Flemish region X3 184 hp = 510 EUR
Europe seems to be so expensive to own a high powered car
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      06-26-2012, 01:37 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by April1 View Post
Europe seems to be so expensive to own a high powered car
That's why we have so many diesels!!!

try filling a petrol vehicle up here in the UK with prices at the cuttent rate of about $2 a LITRE!!! (not gallon!!!)
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      06-26-2012, 05:11 PM   #10
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That is crazy. JW how much would the X3 35d cost in Brussel/FR region?

We don't have the X3 35d in the US yet but I saw a commercial for the X5 35d and they're giving a $4500 eco-credit.
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      06-27-2012, 01:05 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Beyu View Post
That is crazy. JW how much would the X3 35d cost in Brussel/FR region?

We don't have the X3 35d in the US yet but I saw a commercial for the X5 35d and they're giving a $4500 eco-credit.
One-off registration tax would be an additional 5000 EUR, and then circa 700-900 EUR yearly
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      06-27-2012, 03:36 AM   #12
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As JensM already indicated, you can obtain the 2.0D and 3.0D in two versions: reduced power and "full" power like in Germany. The choice is yours!

Not sure where you live in Belgium, but if you check https://belastingen.fenb.be/vfp-port...ng.html#/q/top you will notice that the "BIV" (or registration tax) is actually much lower in Flanders with their new calculation method than in the past (that is for new cars with lower CO2 levels).

Please also be informed that there may be some "legal" issues involved, because by reprogramming the car, you evade taxes... not sure whether and how "Big Brother" will try to catch you out, but this probably explains why a Belgian dealer does not want to reprogram your car....
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      06-27-2012, 04:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooney058 View Post
163 instead of 184 - this extra 21 horsepower is mostly at 3500 rpm - kind of situation when you want to overtake someone in a traffic or on a highway. Minus 21 horsepower is even less acceleration when you need it ...

will phone DE dealers to see if they could reprogramme the car back to factory settings.
This is significant difference. I would not wait a second to have it remapped to 184 hp. On the other hand they usually say ,after remapping there is always the risk that your car may be turned back to its original output at the dealer when your car is in for service .
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      06-27-2012, 04:55 AM   #14
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Thanks Renaud,

I am aware of that, I also posted registration tax for default and reduced power engines. I understand this is in a way 'tax evasion', not keen on that. What makes me is that in same country different rules apply, and more importantly local politicians acknowledge the stupidity of taxes based on power output and not on polution, it still continues for years. As I said, I live in BXL region, thus can not make use of car tax system which is applied in Flanders region just 5 km away from my place of residence...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renaud View Post
As JensM already indicated, you can obtain the 2.0D and 3.0D in two versions: reduced power and "full" power like in Germany. The choice is yours!

Not sure where you live in Belgium, but if you check https://belastingen.fenb.be/vfp-port...ng.html#/q/top you will notice that the "BIV" (or registration tax) is actually much lower in Flanders with their new calculation method than in the past (that is for new cars with lower CO2 levels).

Please also be informed that there may be some "legal" issues involved, because by reprogramming the car, you evade taxes... not sure whether and how "Big Brother" will try to catch you out, but this probably explains why a Belgian dealer does not want to reprogram your car....
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      07-09-2012, 04:15 PM   #15
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It's probably not of any help, but the tax issue is more or less the same in Norway. Our X3 20ds are also downgraded to 163 hp from 184hp, same torque with both options. By doing this BMW is able to reduce the price by approx 2650EUR because of reduced hp tax. 80% of the X3s sold here are the 20d with 163hp (It still costs 100KEUR if you want to throw in a few options and additions so it is by no means "cheap" - and it shouldn't be. But the tax on hp is really annoying). In fact i haven't seen any 35is around here, they are just over the top expensive with almost 70% of the total price being tax... So most of the x3s we see in the streets are 20ds with a few downsized 30ds here an there. But they are quite rare.

To spice things up a bit a nifty little "black box" is commercially available at a tad below 750 EUR. It is plug-and-play for diesels and you can plug it in yourself and in a matter of minutes your 163hp / 380nm torque X3 is transformed into a 204 hp/410 nm machine. But this is of course illegal if you fail to report it and pay the additional 6000EUR tax which follows (yes, the hp tax is not linear, it increases above 170hp). And it also violates BMW's warranties so needless to say this is mostly done with older cars to my understanding.

So I'll continue with my 163hp X3 20d and probably not miss out anything in a country where the speed limit on highways are 100km/h (62 mph) and most country roads have a 80 km/h (approx 50 mph) speed limit. Speeding tickets can quickly set you back 300 - 500 EUR if you find the speed limits a bit on the conservative side so most of us try to keep a reasonably light right foot. On the other hand, the X-drive and extra ground clearance provides for all smiles during winter since our roads are icy/snowy almost 5 months a year. All in all I thus find the X3 package very useful and attractive even with the smaller engine. The looks, the features, the handling - it's all there. And I can live with 0 - 62 mph in 9,2 secs and a top speed more than twice our allowed max speed.
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      07-10-2012, 02:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicBMW View Post
It's probably not of any help, but the tax issue is more or less the same in Norway. Our X3 20ds are also downgraded to 163 hp from 184hp, same torque with both options. By doing this BMW is able to reduce the price by approx 2650EUR because of reduced hp tax. 80% of the X3s sold here are the 20d with 163hp (It still costs 100KEUR if you want to throw in a few options and additions so it is by no means "cheap" - and it shouldn't be. But the tax on hp is really annoying). In fact i haven't seen any 35is around here, they are just over the top expensive with almost 70% of the total price being tax... So most of the x3s we see in the streets are 20ds with a few downsized 30ds here an there. But they are quite rare.

To spice things up a bit a nifty little "black box" is commercially available at a tad below 750 EUR. It is plug-and-play for diesels and you can plug it in yourself and in a matter of minutes your 163hp / 380nm torque X3 is transformed into a 204 hp/410 nm machine. But this is of course illegal if you fail to report it and pay the additional 6000EUR tax which follows (yes, the hp tax is not linear, it increases above 170hp). And it also violates BMW's warranties so needless to say this is mostly done with older cars to my understanding.

So I'll continue with my 163hp X3 20d and probably not miss out anything in a country where the speed limit on highways are 100km/h (62 mph) and most country roads have a 80 km/h (approx 50 mph) speed limit. Speeding tickets can quickly set you back 300 - 500 EUR if you find the speed limits a bit on the conservative side so most of us try to keep a reasonably light right foot. On the other hand, the X-drive and extra ground clearance provides for all smiles during winter since our roads are icy/snowy almost 5 months a year. All in all I thus find the X3 package very useful and attractive even with the smaller engine. The looks, the features, the handling - it's all there. And I can live with 0 - 62 mph in 9,2 secs and a top speed more than twice our allowed max speed.
Thanks a lot NordicBMW, was just actualy googling for chipboxes/remaping of 20d engine. Is there any particular option 'recomended' for F25 20d engine? I will try the reduced power engine first and according to my estimates my region should also have a new car taxation system by the time my engine is broken-in. this would make it 'legal' for tax purposes. it would put bmw waranty at risk still - so if there is one particular chip system what is proven on bmw, I may go that way to minimise the risk of engine failure
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      07-10-2012, 04:26 AM   #17
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It's probably a discussion better suited in a tech talk forum since this is way beyond my competence but Swedish brand KCR has a solution for Norwegian F25 X3s which probably should do the trick in Belgium as well. Others also offer solutions but KCR adds a warranty which is seemingly useful (I have no connections whatsoever with that company so this is from what I can read on the net).

If you post in a tech talk forum I am sure there are quite a few others from the Nordic who have experience and can provide sound advice.
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      07-10-2012, 05:56 AM   #18
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How about Spider tuning box from UK?
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      07-10-2012, 06:17 AM   #19
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I agree that there are probably several useful alternatives out there, our issue is the same as the Belgian: We need a chip box adapted to the 163hp version. I will assume that most of the other foreign chip boxes around will be best suited for the 184hp (std) X3 20d. Especially when you have the (in my opinion rather impressive) Steptronic 8 speed auto gearbox you should probably tune with care as not to effect gearbox programming etc in an adverse way.
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      07-10-2012, 06:33 AM   #20
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I am not an expert on remapping or tuning but as far as I had experienced with my Jeep, chip tuning usually refers to reprogramming of the ECU . Most auto transmissions have separate control units (TCU) , so ECU tuning would not affect the transmission software.

On the other hand , increasing the output of your vehicle can cause some mostly mechanical issues with the transmission system. For example, some stock torque convertors may not be compliant with the increased torque coming from the remapping, and therefore create some shudders etc. and may lead to early wear of the TC.
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      07-10-2012, 01:24 PM   #21
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I realise that there are quite a few pitfalls here so personally I am a bit sceptical to chiptuning. But if the car is delivered stock with 184hp/380nm then a chip that puts the 163hp back in that approximate range cannot be entirely wrong? I checked once more on the KCR option and they promise 190 hp/420nm. It theory that should put it almost back to where it is intended to be from BMW but with a little more to show both at the high and the low end? In theory the increased torque shouldn't cause any problems since the 30ds deliver more than that with the same hardware?
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      07-10-2012, 03:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordicBMW View Post
I realise that there are quite a few pitfalls here so personally I am a bit sceptical to chiptuning. But if the car is delivered stock with 184hp/380nm then a chip that puts the 163hp back in that approximate range cannot be entirely wrong? I checked once more on the KCR option and they promise 190 hp/420nm. It theory that should put it almost back to where it is intended to be from BMW but with a little more to show both at the high and the low end? In theory the increased torque shouldn't cause any problems since the 30ds deliver more than that with the same hardware?
thanks to both of you for the info, I will search for further reviews and will choose accordingly.
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