[Bimar]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Front-page material? Really?

Slow news today on the forum, or they just want to provoke the tirade of comments we are now seeing.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

Front-page material? Really?

It doesn't take much when there is little other new news to report.

[ChrisMT79]

Originally Posted by DeeKay

Not even close ! I am a big fan of the X4/X6 but think the GT's (and the disgusting 2AT) is the worse thing BMW has done for a long time!

Let's be honest. The GT was BMW's solution to the theory (which is fairly accurate for the most part) that Americans do not like/buy station wagons. So, create a station wagon, call it a GT, viola! Pretty decent marketing strategy, and despite the looks (which much like anything, does grow on you), anyone with a family would have a difficult time arguing the practicality and convenience it provides.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by SpokenHands

I drive a 6-series Gran Coupe (among other cars) but I have very fond memories of the 5-Series GT we had (and kept the longest!) until last year. Sure the styling polarises opinion, and there are a lot of BMW fanboys who will never see it (much less test drive one to make sure they know what they're talking about!). But this is a car with many great touches and a fantastic example of BMW design experience. Sure you rarely see one in the US but thats not the case in Asia, Continental Europe and more recently, even in the UK as new model and trim options have brought the cost down.

Point is, this car has terrific utility for a young family (space for pushchairs, bags, grocery, more..) without compromising luxury, space, versatility or style for those it suits. Perfect for someone not keen to step into a wagon/touring and not wanting to be seen in a SUV (yes America, large parts of the world don't care for large SUVs) - and One of the best BMW cabin interiors built to a high spec with a lot of goodies thrown in as standard and still $20,000 cheaper than a 7-Series.

Fantastic as a motorway cruiser yet surprisingly poised in city. You appreciate the subtle presence and design touches in time. Very quick and admittedly not as much fun to throw around at 2 tonnes than a light 4-series, 3-series or 5-series but then neither is my 6GC!

Now the whole point is nothing will convince the fanboys to think differently but fortunately for a company developing profitable niches, this model delivers.

From someone who put their money where their mouth is.

Don't agree.

I have owned a wagon and an F10 5 series. Would have bought an F11 if available here. Almost bought an E61 wagon CPO but the N54 issues and the leaking sunroof killing the rear suspension module issues kept me away.

Initially REALLY wanted to like the GT. But the overly complicated hatch, the odd rear looks, the high rider stance and the softened front end completely ruin the look. THe extra weight from the hatch arrangement and the raised stance means you'd be better off with an X5.

I looked again after the LCI, but the truth is that I was able to fit all of out kids gear in the f10. Stroller, bags, etc. The wacky closed hatchback partition design kills utility of the GT vs the wagon. It is much, much closer to the sedan than the wagon, IMO, in terms of practicality. I'd be interested in seeing GT sales volume vs wagon for the 5. I bet BMW would have sold more wagons. I know I would have bought one.

[eMvy]

I don't really understand getting a X4 over a X3. The X4 has the same power, it's less functional, and the more expensive of the two SAVs.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by inamik75

This for all the haters who say the X4 looks like the 5 or 3 GT, can't compare.

Thank the gods that looks aren't everything.

[EuroTrip]

BMW should not have made any of these. Back when I was selling BMWs the 5 GT came out and only had a faint interest because it came out before the new 5 series.

BMW, seriously nobody wants these. How are they not reacting to the extremely high day supply? Sounds like Nissan's product plan...and where has that got them?

This isn't just because I don't like them. Next thing you know BMW will start making the convertible X4...hmm sounds familiar to the Murano convertible...remember that hunk of sh!t?

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I'd be interested in seeing GT sales volume vs wagon for the 5. I bet BMW would have sold more wagons. I know I would have bought one.

Don't have US only volumes, just global, but:

[i001947]

For some time I thought I would buy the x4. But when it came out with it's
$50k price tag, it just wasn't worth it. The Porsche Macan was a better value.

[vanosracing]

I am holding on to my E61 until BMW N.A. offers something again along the lines of the next gen 5 Series Touring. The X4 and X6 with their slopping roof line makes it the most impractical vehicles. The 5 Series GT has less rear hatch space than my E61 and just looks terrible. The GT3 is very spacious but again is an ugly design.

Listen carefully BMW N.A.,you messed royally when you decided not to offer the F11 in N.A. I don't know who executed your market study but no one wants GT's, the 5 Series GT was a flop and so will the 3 Series GT. As for the X4 and X6, they are useless.

I guess BMW just needs to stick the badge on any design and it will sell. This is very unfortunate and quite sad for a company who delivered some of the best sports sedans and wagons on the market.

One last thing, if you do decide to offer up a 5 Series Touring again in N.A., can you also please offer a manual gearbox. While I understand the need for 8-speed auto trannies for fuel economy, they make BMW's boring. Again, for the badge lovers this is great, for people who want to drive they are boring and not representative of the BMW brand. They are offered in Europe, just offer them here as well.

[JL M3]

Ugly, uglier and ugliest

[mcoops]

As a 3GT owner, here's my take:

Is a viable segment?

Fair question. They don't seem to be selling many. Maybe on that level, some of these models have overestimated their market. Interesting to see whether there will be all new versions in a few years' time.

Does it work for some people?

Absolutely yes. I would readily concede the f31 is more attractive, but extra cabin and boot space of the f34 makes it more practical for some people. We looked at the f31 and the rear cabin is horribly cramped in comparison. This isn't even a debate - it's just objectively true. 5 series size for not much more than f31 money.

Is it ugly?

Yawn. You no likey, you no buy.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by mcoops

As a 3GT owner, here's my take:

Is a viable segment?

Fair question. They don't seem to be selling many. Maybe on that level, some of these models have overestimated their market. Interesting to see whether there will be all new versions in a few years' time.
.

Originally Posted by mcoops

Is it ugly?

Yawn. You no likey, you no buy.

I hear this argument a lot. Usually by people who own the car that isn't selling or isn't popular. And let's face it, looks are subjective for sure.

However, this argument holds no water. Creating these vehicles takes TREMENDOUS resources. Tons of money to create the design, the tooling, the certification, etc., etc. Why continue to spend money on a niche product that will have a low sales volume? That hurts the brand in other areas.

Obviously people smarter than me have thought this through, and have concluded that the costs are outweighed by the potential returns. Obviously more sales, even incremental, with a shared platform means that the base tooling, design, etc. can be written off over more units. I learned a long time ago that in Accounting, you can do a lot of interesting things with the numbers. And I'm sure they're playing that game.

But at the end of the day, why have so many vheicles that are so clustered around each other? The 3 GT, 4GC, 5 GT and X4 all occupy close to the same space in the market and price wise. No, they are not all the same, bu the 3GT, 4GC and X4 all have almost the same interior. The 3GT and 4GC have very similar exteriors, etc.

Spend the money on a completely new direction. Much as I don't like the 2 Active Tourer at least it's a new segment for BMW, one that they're not cannibalizing sales of other BMW's.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

However, this argument holds no water. Creating these vehicles takes TREMENDOUS resources. Tons of money to create the design, the tooling, the certification, etc., etc. Why continue to spend money on a niche product that will have a low sales volume? That hurts the brand in other areas.

Obviously people smarter than me have thought this through, and have concluded that the costs are outweighed by the potential returns. Obviously more sales, even incremental, with a shared platform means that the base tooling, design, etc. can be written off over more units. I learned a long time ago that in Accounting, you can do a lot of interesting things with the numbers. And I'm sure they're playing that game.

But at the end of the day, why have so many vheicles that are so clustered around each other? The 3 GT, 4GC, 5 GT and X4 all occupy close to the same space in the market and price wise. No, they are not all the same, bu the 3GT, 4GC and X4 all have almost the same interior. The 3GT and 4GC have very similar exteriors, etc.

Spend the money on a completely new direction. Much as I don't like the 2 Active Tourer at least it's a new segment for BMW, one that they're not cannibalizing sales of other BMW's.

As you highlighted yourself, many of these are "Niche" products, and as such, the intention is never for them to be massive sellers. How many times have you heard people complain that a 3 series, or 5 series is "too common"? The GT models allow people to retain a certain degree of exclusivity that has been eroded by the high proportion of 3's and 5's out there. As with the X4 to the X3 and the X6 to the X5.

I think you have to assume BMW did their sums on development costs, there might not be much in it. But at the end of the day people are buying them, and unless the sales are 100% cannibalisation (which I doubt) then offering the choice is helping to retain customers who would have otherwise gone to Audi, Mercedes et al. for something different.

I think the problem is, they are visually challenging.. and many people on many forums use that as an excuse to brand them as pointless or useless - rather then evaluating the relative merits.

[outie]

Originally Posted by Zadjali

4 GC is missing!

And how does that fit into this group? 4GC is nothing more than a 4 series with 4 doors.

[Tallest]

I think it is just slightly annoying and visually uncomfortable to see them stand alone. But when all three are together, this is truly disturbing. It is like walking in the back of a used car dealer lot, with all the tradeins and cars waiting to go to service. Nasty.

[predator]

Thx Matski , the first useful and positive reaction in the last 2 days , my opinion also

[Falafel Combo]

How did you get all 3 side by side? Was there an "ugly" convention in town that I missed? Good lord! Those are some hideous cars right there. Pontiac Aztec sounds about right.

[vanosracing]

Originally Posted by Matski

As you highlighted yourself, many of these are "Niche" products, and as such, the intention is never for them to be massive sellers. How many times have you heard people complain that a 3 series, or 5 series is "too common"? The GT models allow people to retain a certain degree of exclusivity that has been eroded by the high proportion of 3's and 5's out there. As with the X4 to the X3 and the X6 to the X5.

I think you have to assume BMW did their sums on development costs, there might not be much in it. But at the end of the day people are buying them, and unless the sales are 100% cannibalisation (which I doubt) then offering the choice is helping to retain customers who would have otherwise gone to Audi, Mercedes et al. for something different.

I think the problem is, they are visually challenging.. and many people on many forums use that as an excuse to brand them as pointless or useless - rather then evaluating the relative merits.

I'm sorry but there is nothing exclusive about the GT. Audi has done a very good job with the design of the A5 Sportback and the A7, something BMW tried to mimic and failed. Even BMW NA CEO publicly stated the 5 Series GT was a disappointment in terms of sales. In not offering the F11, BMW owners turned to MB. The 3 Series GT will also disappoint, yes it is roomy but there is no BMW DNA in either car.

As much as I like BMW's, BMW NA has been very disappointing of late with their model selections for NA.

[mcoops]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I hear this argument a lot. Usually by people who own the car that isn't selling or isn't popular. And let's face it, looks are subjective for sure.

However, this argument holds no water. Creating these vehicles takes TREMENDOUS resources. Tons of money to create the design, the tooling, the certification, etc., etc. Why continue to spend money on a niche product that will have a low sales volume? That hurts the brand in other areas.

If you look back at what I wrote, I actually concur with a lot of what you're saying.
For sure the 3GT is a niche product, and I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. I presume you don't think filling a niche is a crime, but that it should fit the brand values and make the company money?

On the latter point, I'm pretty sure BMW calculated it would make money. Maybe in the end it won't. But tastes and trends in every market evolve. Sometimes you have to take a punt. If they had ignored the SUV trend, they would have missed out on a ton of business and had less money to reinvest across the range.

The brand argument is an interesting one. Yes perhaps if that niche were a damaging departure from BMWs brand values, but is that really the case for the GC and GT models? In the end, to me they are still driver-focused premium products. The active tourer might be a more viable segment, but is a front wheel drive small MPV closer to or further from BMWs core values than the GT or GC?

That leaves us with, is it ugly? I'll step out at this point

[jadnashuanh]

Most of the people that bash the GT's have never sat in or driven one. Until you do, in comparison to what may be seen as an equivalent X-series vehicle, you don't know what they are talking about!

I prefer a practical vehicle, and the GT, built on the 7-series chassis provides easy access, great long distance poise, and more than adequate performance for most normal people. I don't find it ugly, but then, I care more about how it drives, plus, from the inside, it looks like most BMW's. I can't see the outside while I'm driving it, and could care less what others think about it. Nobody is making you buy one...

The 5-series GT, IMHO, got off to a bad start in the USA where it was only available with the V8, no x-drive, and the vast majority of them came in fully loaded making it a nearly $100K car in the USA. The dealers got almost no advertising support, and got stuck with expensive vehicles they couldn't sell. A good portion of them do not stock one, and few have one on their showroom. Some people don't like that extra 3-5" in height, but appreciate the additional height over the sedan. You won't sell many if you don't have any in stock to show people and then let them decide. The GT does sell well elsewhere...people's taste varies - BMW is an international company...they don't only make vehicles for the USA, so how well it does here isn't always a major impact.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by vanosracing

I'm sorry but there is nothing exclusive about the GT. Audi has done a very good job with the design of the A5 Sportback and the A7, something BMW tried to mimic and failed. Even BMW NA CEO publicly stated the 5 Series GT was a disappointment in terms of sales. In not offering the F11, BMW owners turned to MB. The 3 Series GT will also disappoint, yes it is roomy but there is no BMW DNA in either car.

As much as I like BMW's, BMW NA has been very disappointing of late with their model selections for NA.

Neither BMW nor Audi invented the 5 door fastback segment, they been selling for decades, and selling well. Audi took the route of making something slightly more stylish, but compromised in practicality against the GT's. BMW made something more practical, and less stylish.... until the Gran Coupes came along... now they offer both sides of the coin.

And I mean exclusive, like you don't see many... where as you don't go 20m around here without seeing a normal 3/5 saloon/tourer.