[Tjalle]

Obviously VW and EPA has been discussing/working on this for over a year - VW halfheartedly trying to solve the problem.

VW - and I believe also BMW have Bosch software, which probably means both Bosch and BMW were aware of what was going on.

BMW come clean - unless they also cheated, but the affair will probably cast a shadow also on Bosch.

It will also have an impact on diesels world wide (Peter: even in the UK) - and kill it in the US.

I am very happy with my 35i

[Peter_R]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

BMW come clean - unless they also cheated, but the affair will probably cast a shadow also on Bosch.

It will also have an impact on diesels world wide (Peter: even in the UK) - and kill it in the US.

I am very happy with my 35i

I do not think so. The press have got their teeth into this diesel cheat problem, but, once it becomes old news and they have moved on, the public will forget about it. VW will just offer better discounts for their cars and over about 12 months it will be forgotten. Remember I am 73 years young and have seen how this sort of thing becomes flavour of the month for a while and then gets pushed (not forgotten) into the background.

[PX3]

I'm not sure we really needed another thread on this topic.

However, as you have taken the time too then I will comment on it

I think most of the joe public won't even hear about this and even if VW did a recall (or any other manufacturer), so what! Most people buy a diesel in the UK because of two things:
1. Low Tax
2. Fuel Economy
Diesel used to be a lot cheaper than Petrol too, but we won't discuss that now.

The only thing that may change peoples opinion on diesel is the recent talk about it affecting our health and raising the cost of the congestion charge in major cities, then if this has a major impact on the cost of diesel, then things may change.

I can't really see this news about scamming the emissions causing any major concern to anyone (apart from the manufacturers of course), as I assume the manufacturers responsible will have to recall and reduce the emissions.

[Tjalle]

Time will tell....

Peter, I am 71 and worked previously for a Swedish car manufacturer who, at a time, had a-not-so-good gearbox . That haunted us for decades.

[Peter_R]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

Time will tell....

Peter, I am 71 and worked previously for a Swedish car manufacturer who, at a time, had a-not-so-good gearbox . That haunted us for decades.

Hello youngster

I don't remember that, so easily forgotten. There would only be two or three? Volvo (no), so must have been Saab?

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

Obviously VW and EPA has been discussing/working on this for over a year - VW halfheartedly trying to solve the problem.

VW - and I believe also BMW have Bosch software, which probably means both Bosch and BMW were aware of what was going on.

BMW come clean - unless they also cheated, but the affair will probably cast a shadow also on Bosch.

It will also have an impact on diesels world wide (Peter: even in the UK) - and kill it in the US.

I am very happy with my 35i

According to Bloomberg article also BMW X5 was road tested together with VWs and BMW X5 passed the test.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lean-air-group

Then German received the results of the real-world tests.

“We were astounded when we saw the numbers,” he said.

On the open road, the Jetta exceeded the U.S. nitrogen oxide emissions standard by 15 to 35 times. The Passat was 5 to 20 times the standard.

“It was shocking,” German said.

The BMW X5 passed the road test.

[Rodion]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

Time will tell....

Peter, I am 71 and worked previously for a Swedish car manufacturer who, at a time, had a-not-so-good gearbox . That haunted us for decades.

You are Swedish and worked for the Swedish autoindustry and yet you drive BMW. Nice

[Tjalle]

Peter: Yes.

Rodion, as seen above "my" car manufacturer -like Cleese parrot: " is no more", and I also have a MY-97 9000 Turbo.

I am glad the X5 passed the test - even if I have a X4 petrol - BMW cheating could have lowered the value on all BMW:s

[exon]

BMW/Mercedes diesel went the extra step to use that urea fluid thing (DEF?), so it passed. VW did not use that for some reason (probably cost) and still claims it meet the requirement....

[Peter_R]

Yes as stated above the BMW X5 was tested at the same time and passed without problems.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Peter_R

Yes as stated above the BMW X5 was tested at the same time and passed without problems.

Will be interesting to see if BMW will need to change over to the full SCR system for European models, once the investigators/regulators run some real world tests against EU6 here in Europe.

Remember BMW have opted for the cheaper NSC system for most of our diesel models, including the 6-cylinder engines.

HighlandPete

[omgboost]

Originally Posted by Peter_R

VW will just offer better discounts for their cars and over about 12 months it will be forgotten.

Perfect time for me to get a GTI or the R. I wonder how steep the discounts will be...

[cc3]

Just traded a F15 X5 3.0d for a new X3 3.0d. The X5 engine had the Adblue to help with emissions but what I thought was the same engine in the X3 doesn't. Does this mean the x3 is potentially more dirty than the X5?

[Tjalle]

cc3: yes! I am not an engine person, but obviously catalyst with adblue is the way to meet the most stringent emission requirements.

That does not necessarily mean that your vehicle is illegal.

[Tjalle]

Field day!

Some of the US, most of the German and all Swedish newspapers are on to the cheating.

According to some input from UK, there they are immune against this type of scandal - USA, Germany and Sweden are not!

The Green People will have Field Days during the next year or so. Prepare for added costs for having a car, diesel and petrol/gas.

[The X Men]

Originally Posted by cc3

Just traded a F15 X5 3.0d for a new X3 3.0d. The X5 engine had the Adblue to help with emissions but what I thought was the same engine in the X3 doesn't. Does this mean the x3 is potentially more dirty than the X5?

"DIESEL cars certified under EU rules as the cleanest yet built are pumping out toxic exhaust emissions at up to 9.9 times the official maximum, a Sunday Times investigation has revealed.

Tests on 29 new diesel cars showed that all but five emitted nitrogen oxides (NOx) at levels well above the maximum allowed under the new “Euro 6” standards, which were drawn up specifically to cut such pollution.

A Mazda6 2.2-litre turbo SkyActiv-D tested for The Sunday Times produced four times the Euro 6 maximum of 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre overall. That rose to 12.6 times the limit when it was going uphill in residential areas with speed bumps.

Another, a BMW X3 2-litre turbo 4x4, generated 9.9 times the Euro 6 NOx limit overall."

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1560165.ece

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

cc3: yes! I am not an engine person, but obviously catalyst with adblue is the way to meet the most stringent emission requirements.

That does not necessarily mean that your vehicle is illegal.

Agree, may well be more NOx in real world conditions.

Vehicle must have type approval, therefore meets EU6 standard for emissions.

HighlandPete

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by The X Men

"DIESEL cars certified under EU rules as the cleanest yet built are pumping out toxic exhaust emissions at up to 9.9 times the official maximum, a Sunday Times investigation has revealed.

Tests on 29 new diesel cars showed that all but five emitted nitrogen oxides (NOx) at levels well above the maximum allowed under the new “Euro 6” standards, which were drawn up specifically to cut such pollution.

A Mazda6 2.2-litre turbo SkyActiv-D tested for The Sunday Times produced four times the Euro 6 maximum of 0.08 grams of NOx per kilometre overall. That rose to 12.6 times the limit when it was going uphill in residential areas with speed bumps.

Another, a BMW X3 2-litre turbo 4x4, generated 9.9 times the Euro 6 NOx limit overall."

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1560165.ece

This knowledge has been the elephant in the room over here for quite some time. After the initial media attention has (until now) been mostly ignored. The industry view at the time was, "we meet the EU6 standard, so we are doing nothing wrong".

I hope we now see this issue addressed in a way we don't see more spin.

HighlandPete

[Tjalle]

It is important to keep track of "special preparations" and illegal cheating.
VW did illegaly cheat - hence the upheaval - at least outside the UK

Now, the flood gates are open, there will be a lot of accusations that if a car does not meet requirements on "anybodys" road test - it is illegal - which is not necessarily the case.

The extract above from Sunday Times is one such example: taking one value from a test not done according to specification.

Of course it will not help that all (most?) manufacturers have been doctoring their vehicles both to pass the test and get good mileage.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Tjalle

It is important to keep track of "special preparations" and illegal cheating.
VW did illegaly cheat - hence the upheaval - at least outside the UK

Now, the flood gates are open, there will be a lot of accusations that if a car does not meet requirements on "anybodys" road test - it is illegal - which is not necessarily the case.

The extract above from Sunday Times is one such example: taking one value from a test not done according to specification.

Of course it will not help that all (most?) manufacturers have been doctoring their vehicles both to pass the test and get good mileage.

I think that one of the perceptions is that if a vehicle is 'clean' in the test, therefore it is also clean across its working range. This is clearly not the case, whether we are talking of manufacturers cheating or not.

There does seem to be a 'free for all' outside of the test parameters. If car Y emits 9x more NOx when used, compared to car Z which emits 2x the limit when used, then we have a very flawed system.

This is where many see the need to change the rules and make the parameters much more realistic, than a very tight set of conditions which don't in any way reflect real use. Same for mpg and CO2, figures which don't reflect reality just undermine confidence and breed suspicion.

HighlandPete

[exon]

Originally Posted by The X Men

"12.6 times the limit when it was going uphill in residential areas with speed bumps.

Another, a BMW X3 2-litre turbo 4x4, generated 9.9 times the Euro 6 NOx limit overall."

MPG varies wildly under different driving conditions, but if you drive long enough it will eventually average back roughly to the EPA numbers. As long as they do that, then BMW and Mazda are fine.

The problem with VW TDI is, no matter how long you drive (outside the testing facility...), the emission will never be converging back to the tested numbers.

[Tjalle]

US, German and Swedish authorities are going to check out conformity on several car manufacturers.
The problem is, polititians are mixing cheating with the difference that is "normal" between tests and real world driving. Especially with the "doctoring" we all know most manufacturers are performing.

We all know who is going to pay in the end,,,,