05-19-2011, 03:01 PM | #23 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/att...4&d=1304371793 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 03:11 PM | #24 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
330
Rep 1,560
Posts
Drives: 2022 X4M40i, retired ‘11 X3
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: MI
|
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 03:18 PM | #25 |
Brigadier General
91
Rep 3,855
Posts |
The same argument rages on the other side of the pond. People review the car with VDC and say it's a "must have" assuming that Normal mode with VDC (dampers) is the same as a car without. It simply isn't. As very few people have actually driven a VDC and a non-VDC car, and most people aren't able to observe the effect of having larger wheels, RFTs, sports suspension, performance control etc, it's impossible to draw conclusions like this unless you're in a lab!
__________________
F25 xDrive20d SE __ professional multimedia package | dynamic package | climate package | 309s | xline | xenons | electric seats | folding mirrors | business speakers |
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 03:32 PM | #26 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
Tha being said...I do feel like though I have some ground to stand on b/c I've been behind the wheel of both extensively and i'm not talking off of a data sheet. I've had multiple days of test drives with both DHP, non-dhp, 28 and 35 and I can tell you that I feel a difference between the modes. I've done my homework as well like others, but I've also been behind the wheel and that is what mattes. Here is my overall conclusion: #1: if you don't have performance tires you are not pushing any X3 to its limits...RFTs and all-seasons are just not built for that...period..can't imagine will agrue that. #2: You have to be driving hard....and I mean HARD for the sport+ modes to really really really matter. I mean you will notice a difference, but I pushed the b@lls out of the non-dhp car and I felt like it kept to the road beautifully... in the end there is only so hard I'm going to push a 50K SUV that I have to pay for! #3: it is an SUV...period...it' s not EVER going to handle like a 3-series...no way no how not possible...physics comes into play and a higher center of gravity means more body roll #4: between the modes here is what I found: DHP comfort mode: very comfortable but definitely floaty...not bad, just floaty. I hate the throttle response in this mode...frankly it is non-responsive DHP: sport mode: to me in most situations ,it feels exactly like a non-dhp X3.good balance between comfort and performance. Sport+: definitely a different beast...tight. twitchy, but again...you better be driving hard in order to make her happy...if you lolly gag around she'll laugh back at you and tell you to put her back in sport mode non-DHP x3: in my opinion it's just setup to drive it and forget it and be happy in all situations...except the one where you are floating the car around a track...but who here is doing that??? And again...not sure if I put this out there on this board but on the other board I did....if I'm going out to beat the b@lls out of the pavement, I'm not doing so in an angry fashion in my X3...I got my STI for that....my x3 will never in a million years beat the sh*t out of the road like my STI and I don't expect it to....my buddy's M3 barely beats the sh*t out of the road like my STI does....that is what I use for angry driving. That being said....I'm looking forward to driving the X3 in whatever way I want...and I feel like with either setup, non-dhp or dhp it's a no-brainer. I just think people need to know what they need to do with a DHP car...if all they are going to do is throw it in sport mode all the time and drive...save the 1400 bucks and get a regular non-dhp x3 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 06:32 PM | #27 | |
Lieutenant
29
Rep 484
Posts |
Quote:
It's likely what some M Sport owners feel in the sport+ setting are actually the sportier steering response from the Variable sport steering option, which is part of the M Sport package. I would suggest that driving straight through the same lousy roads in different setting can tell you whether there are changes in suspension setting. For those who do not have DHP or M Sport, but only SAP, the only changes would be throttle response. Also, with DHP the suspension setting isn't changed for individual wheels. You either get soft or hard set up at all 4 corners.
__________________
E60 528
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 06:54 PM | #28 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
I'll disagree with this that you wrote: Also, with DHP the suspension setting isn't changed for individual wheels. You either get soft or hard set up at all 4 corners. I'm 99% sure that is incorrect...modifying the feel of each wheel is the exact point of DHP..."dynamic"...it's not an all or nothing thing...why do you think the system when you are at highway speed and hit a pothole adjust the rear wheel after the front wheel detects the bump...it's modifying one wheel differently than the other...again that's the whole point of DHP. This system has been around for a while in the other lines...it totally adjusts each wheel and not the whole setup. What it will do is this...adjust the whole setup to be geared towards a sport mode, however the system still modifies and adjusts each wheel accordingly...that's just it. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 08:43 PM | #29 |
Enlisted Member
2
Rep 33
Posts |
It may actually be marketing genius. Confuse the consumer to the point that they just buy everything just in case we may miss something. LOL
I got the 28i and love the suspension. While not as stiff as my old 08, it has a great feel that is a nice compromise between that soft feel and the stiffer feel of the 08. I was a bit concerned about the "Comfort" dampers but this forum eased my mind when it was pointed out that the 28i without DHP would have a more sport suspension as normal and not the comfort setting some have disliked as soft and boat like. I love the ride and really love the technology, from worst to first in the BMW line... -CR |
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 09:04 PM | #30 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
And yea I agree that the non-dhp setup is really really good. I really made sure to test the heck out of both setups and what I really didn't like was the dhp in normal mode..it definitely has a comfort setup to it and although it rides very smooth, not what I wanted. The sport + on the DHP is nice though...must say...however I'm not sure I could drive it every way that way... Until I see something from BMW I'll keep my opinions open, but I think that 1400 option really does perf control, dampening and the steering....that is pretty clear. But what isnt' clear are the reports from users that in the 35i the driving dynamics feature (the toggle switches) changes the chassis setup to feel more firm. So what I'm wondering is if driving dynamics gets you chassis setup but not suspension setup(whatever that means) there are just too many people I've seen reporting this stiffer feel...and maybe what DHP brings to the feel is the dampening factor to the stiffer setup...that would make sense to me. Somebody is going to take off all the wheels and figure this out eventually. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 09:04 PM | #31 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
124
Rep 1,781
Posts |
Quote:
I've done some more research, and I've learned/remembered that the seemingly nameless option with the SAP and M-Sport that comes with the switches is called Dynamic Drive Control. It used to be there. Now it's just chillin' in the back. On the 7-series, this feature is actually called Driving Dynamics Control. On the Z4, Driving Dynamics Control is defined as having Normal, Sport, and Sport+ modes; I believe this is what we have, although it remains mysteriously unlisted for the X3. On the X6 xDrive50i there is a standard feature called Dynamic Performance Control. In Canada, the Dynamic Handling Package is called the Dynamic Comfort Package because the Dynamic suspension is more comfortable in Normal mode than the standard suspension. This option has also been known to ghost as Variable Damper Control. As much as I love BMW's marketing team, I dislike very much their overuse and misuse of the words Active, Adaptive, Dynamic, Variable, and Control. Active and Adaptive mean the same thing, essentially, in that an Active system should Actively Adapt to the conditions, and in that way the system should be Dynamic, because it is always changing, which means that the system is also Variable. BMW also uses that last word, Control, too often where the driver actually does not Control the system, rather that responsibility rests on the car's computer. Active, Adaptive, Dynamic, and Variable should also imply some driver input, but do not; although some systems ascribed to these falsely characteristic names do allow driver input, there are systems with the same characteristic title but one does not offer driver input where the other does. Shall we make a list? Dynamic Stability Control Dynamic Traction Control Dynamic Brake Control Dynamic Damper Control Variable Damper Control Electronic Damper Control Dynamic Drive Control Driving Dynamics Control Performance Control Dynamic Performance Control Active Roll Stabilization Adaptive Drive Adaptive Transmission Control Adaptive Headlights Adaptive Sport Seats Active Ventilated Seats Active Head Restraints Active Steering Variable Sport Steering Adaptive Brake Lights Park Distance Control Adaptive Cruise Control Dynamic Cruise Control Active Knee Protection Active Blind Spot Detection ActiveHybrid EfficientDynamics Hill Descent Control Adaptive Light Control Cornering Brake Control Adaptive M Suspension Let us not forget the names ascribed to the upholstery choices. Boston Leather Dakota Leather Nevada Leather Kansas Leather Novillo Leather Nappa Leather Merino Leather Alcantara Leather What kind of operation are we running here? A tour of the American territories and then a jetset to Italy? And what about the lovely model names (which make me feel like a rocket scientist when I say them)? BMW ***i xDrive, xDrive Sports Wagon, xDrive GranTurismo, BMW 7**i/iL xDrive, ActiveHybrid 750i/iL, BMW X* xDrive**i/d, and last but not least, BMW Z4 sDrive35is. I think we're all suffering from some BMW syntax errors. We all mean the same thing, but there are so many fucking absurd names for the same features that we don't know what anyone else is saying. The same features on different models are called different things. That's a problem. The only place that can offer you any understanding as to the truth of the features is the Owners' Manual, which you have to download, but you shouldn't have to. It should all be clear in the features & specs tab. cer2225, you're absolutely right. This convoluted bullshit is just a game to make stupid amounts of money on stupid people with stupidly overexcited check-marking fingers. I'm happy with my car, but I don't appreciate that their ill-advised release of arbitrary names and specifications for one could put a less observant person in a car that doesn't have everything they want or that they could have spent too much on something they did not want AND two makes me look like a babbling idiot because I think I've finally understood the features lineup, BUT NO, GOD FORBID someone actually knew what they were talking about, BMW might melt like a witch under water. Last edited by xDrive35i; 05-19-2011 at 09:15 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 09:29 PM | #32 |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Judd -
Wow man this is an awesome post...seriously. I mean at first you started to confuse me more, but when i went back and read it a 2nd time it actually started to make sense to me, and I think the problem as you pointed out is BMWs use of the english language. The one thing that I TOTALLY agree with you on is that BMW should have brought that same system in the X5 into the X3...but no..I know that system, and I understand that system...and if BMW brought that system to the X3 people would actually know what they are getting! But for real...that would have been sick in the X3. Not that the DHP isn't b/c it is, but I think what you said about some non-observent people skipping on something they want and others over paying is what sums up the other side of the problem. We on these boards are here for each other and try and help each other by pointing people in the right direction on advice etc... but when a topic like this is SO confusing and SO mis-understood as a result of BMW, it makes everyone over react b/c at some level we're trying to protect / help each other. Man.... Seriously if I were you, I'd send what you posted in an email to BMWNA and basically tell them what is going on with the message boards and this is the confusion they are creating.... I think your write up was very well referenced and thought out and that is what BMWNA needs to see. Now how does this f-n system work again??? |
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 09:39 PM | #34 |
Lieutenant Colonel
124
Rep 1,781
Posts |
As for sending it to BMWNA, they probably already have my name down on a customer service list for the 3.5 weeks my car spent in the service department waiting for a new transfer case for a series of incomprehensible stability and traction management systems errors. The dealership is refunding two months of my lease for the trouble. BMWNA had had it with the dealership after I called customer service five times and climbed my way up the rungs to higher level positions where a pointed finger really does mean, "do it now or you're fired." I don't know if they want to hear from me again.
And for that reason, I'll send it when I get the chance. The notion of BMW being in consumer services tickles me pink, because I know that my money--well spent or not--holds some serious ground against John Doe from New Jersey working at the phones. |
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 10:16 PM | #35 |
Colonel
644
Rep 2,294
Posts |
There are some great posts being laid down here tonight...love it.
__________________
2018 340i xDrive M Perf Edtn Sunset Orange
Previous BMWs - 19 others since 1971. |
Appreciate
0
|
05-19-2011, 10:22 PM | #36 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
I'm sure your comment was more towards BMWNA being in North Jersy and not me being in North Jersey! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-20-2011, 01:52 AM | #37 |
Brigadier General
91
Rep 3,855
Posts |
You've pulled one in here from BMW skateboards!
__________________
F25 xDrive20d SE __ professional multimedia package | dynamic package | climate package | 309s | xline | xenons | electric seats | folding mirrors | business speakers |
Appreciate
0
|
05-20-2011, 02:54 AM | #38 |
Lieutenant
29
Rep 484
Posts |
BMW's marketing actually hasn't spent much time on the sporty aspects of X3. Seeing how few people actually order the DHP, it's clear that X3 simply gets the benefits from other BMW cars' sporty images.
Mole7374 - sport suspension delete is unique to the M Sport in the U.S. (maybe Canada too, I haven't checked.) In other markets, there's actually a sport suspension for the M Sport, but it's deleted for the U.S. market. I think this used to be the case for X5, but now M Sport option does include the sport suspension. BMW may put out inconsistent information, but that doesn't mean we can't figure out the truth. It doesn't matter to most buyers, but for those who care, check the hardware and you'll know what's there. Case in point: X3's optional Performance Control simply uses braking action to achieve a "torque vectoring" effect, but there's no mechanical planetary gear set or multi-plate clutch there to re-direct torque as in the X6, X5M, or X6M, or the SH-AWD in Acura and the Sport Diff in Audi S4. it's a poor man's torque vectoring, similar to Porsche's system on the G2 Cayenne, or Ford Focus (albeit on front wheels). Auto makers are increasingly using electronics instead of mechanical devices. To mask what they don't have, fancy names are drawn up. for example, VW GTI markets a "XDS" electronic differential lock as a cheap alternative to a mechanical LSD. Dig deeper, my fellow enthusiasts.
__________________
E60 528
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-20-2011, 05:13 AM | #39 | |
Private First Class
10
Rep 195
Posts |
Quote:
And look I think x-drive is a fine system...it really is, however like you said, when you start "faking out" enough stuff (like the poor mans torque vectoring factor you point out) eventually you hit a wall...that being said, for just about every x-drive owner in just about every situation, x-drive will run like a champ. AWD conversations are near and dear to me as a subaru enthusiast and STI owner....and I can tell you that if you ever want to see some crazy obsessive people, go out to an STI board and read the crap that gets thrown around about other AWD systems...some of it is spot on, a lot of it is crazy flaming, but the bottom line is this....when you put in mechanical LSD and a multi-plate transfer clutch, and a planetary-gear-type center differential,...and oh yea don't forget the limited-slip helical front and Torsen rear differential.... you can just achieve things that electronic systems can never do. That being said though...BMW has ended up selling A LOT more cars over the years b/c of the fact that they introduced X-Drive....now that is either good engineering or great marketing!! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-20-2011, 09:27 AM | #42 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
124
Rep 1,781
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
05-20-2011, 09:34 AM | #44 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
124
Rep 1,781
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|