Keyless entry?

Andrewob · 02-07-2011, 02:53 PM

I have ordered the access pack which includes keyless entry and exit.

How is the car unlocked? Is it, as you approach the car or do you have to pull on the door handle to unlock?

Likewise locking, do you just walk away from the car?

Thanks

pwdrskr · 02-07-2011, 02:57 PM

When you place your hand on the door handle, the car will unlock. To lock, there is ~1 inch square spot on the handle that you touch with a finger.

You must have the key on your person...

Tauvil · 02-07-2011, 03:18 PM

Actually touch (like an iPhone) or will it work through gloves? I.e., will have to take my gloves off when entering or leaving the vehicle?

X5plug-in · 02-07-2011, 03:19 PM

Sorry to depress you but you might want to read the Sunday Times article from yesterday on how crooks are cloning these systems to steal cars where proximity both unlocks the car and also enables ignition. Clever. Rare. Worrying.

Andrewob · 02-07-2011, 03:39 PM

That is quite worrying in that my office is quite close to where the x3 will be parked!!

sfax · 02-07-2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3buyerScotland

Sorry to depress you but you might want to read the Sunday Times article from yesterday on how crooks are cloning these systems to steal cars where proximity both unlocks the car and also enables ignition. Clever. Rare. Worrying.

Can't read the article in question but I can see the headline. Could anyone with a Times subscription post the article contents?

I might be wrong but I think the only difference between the access package and a normal X3 (which is also keyless start) is that you don't have to press a button on the key to unlock and lock the car. The key still transmits a signal to unlock the car, and I'm not sure how it would be any more secure without the access package. Ultimately a professional thief could, in theory, intercept any unlock signal, and then reproduce it to unlock the car later.

If they designed the access package properly it could be more secure by only looking for a key a few feet away each time the door handle is touched. In contrast you can normally unlock a car using a remote key from 20m+ away, which would be easier for someone to intercept.

I haven't ordered the access package but wish I had in hindsight. Would like to read the article in question though.

Nahoa · 02-07-2011, 07:25 PM

Comfort Access works with gloves on. Just tested it both opening and closing (by placing finger on ridged portion of door handle). The gloves were not too thick. IPhone won't work with them, but they're not serious winter backcountry gloves either.

Stealing codes? People will always try and sometimes succeed. I don't buy that Comfort Access is any more susceptible than a general remote. What I think I understand from the BMW approach to codes and ignitions disablers leaves me believing we BMW owners are better protected than most folks out there. If they really want my car, they'll get it. That's what insurance is for. Very few absolutes out there.

No way I'd miss out on the awesome convenience of Comfort Access on the basis of that "designed to sell" article.

marmite · 02-07-2011, 07:59 PM

I haven't read the article either...

But - I have a fair idea how comfort access works and have it on my existing BMW.
A conventional remote, you press a button, it transmits an encrypted code to the car's receiver. A comfort access remote is detected by proximity, and *then* sends an encrypted code to the car's receiver.
So - either way the encryption code can be intercepted - and as Nahoa mentions, with comfort access you need to be closer to the car than you do with a conventional remote. If I'm more than a few feet from my car and someone else puts their hand through the door handle - nothing happens.
If some thief was close enough to be able to open the door by touch, you'd definitely know about it - they might as well just wait for you to open the door when you're getting out and push you out of the way - then to start the car, you would need to be very close, and they'd probably have to leave the door open. I haven't checked actually - but I don't think you can start the car if there's no key physically inside the car (in the same way you can't lock the car with comfort access, if you've accidentally left the key inside)

Ok, so the encryption code can be intercepted either way - the comfort access doesn't make it more or less secure in that respect..
But, it's not a fixed code - it will do no good for a criminal with a scanner to capture the code, wait for you to leave and resend it.. - the code changes with every transmission.
Based on a seed value and an generation algorithm and probably a fixed code too.

To know what code to send, you'd need to know all of those, and it would be virtually impossible to work out the seed value even if you knew the generation algorithm.
This kind of code security is common to secure networks - I have two fobs that generate a new code every 30 secs that work on this principle and are used to access some of my banking accounts and my works private networks.

So in short, I wouldn't worry about comfort access vulnerabilities and I'm ordering it again on the X3 - it's really nice!

X5plug-in · 02-08-2011, 12:17 AM

Only have the print version. The paper claims comfort is a bigger risk as no button press is involved. Scanner 1 stands by car. Scanner 2 follows driver. 2 captures signal & sends to 1 who retransmits to car. Car thinks driver is next to car, unlocks and can be driven away. Industry, not just BMW which is listed, said to be worried.

perto · 02-08-2011, 02:16 AM

I reed the same article in a Norwegian magazine one month ago, they mentioned its different system from car manufacturer to car manufacturer so its possible BMW not have the easiest system to transmit the signal.

sfax · 02-08-2011, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3buyerScotland

Only have the print version. The paper claims comfort is a bigger risk as no button press is involved. Scanner 1 stands by car. Scanner 2 follows driver. 2 captures signal & sends to 1 who retransmits to car. Car thinks driver is next to car, unlocks and can be driven away. Industry, not just BMW which is listed, said to be worried.

I think the extra vulnerability may be something to do with the standing next to the driver part, and making his key send an unlock code (pretending you are the car whose handle has been touched). You can't (easily) make someone press the unlock button on their key but you can stand next to them, transmit a signal requesting an unlock, and then capture the return signal.

The difficulty (for the thieves) comes in the decryption. There are usually a pair of private encryption keys that are never sent and they are used to encrypt and decrypt messages. You need this private key to be able to communicate successfully. But, if you were picking up the unlock code from the driver who was away from the car, and simultaneously sending this code to thief 2 standing next to the car, I'm not sure how the car could know the difference between the owner and a thief.

X5plug-in · 02-08-2011, 03:49 AM

Exactly as stated. The car does not know whose hand is on the door handle but when it received the correct retransmitted code it unlocks. The difference is that with comfort both the key and car are constantly transmitting so can constantly be recorded. With a button press this is much harder to capture in time. I should add I did not go for the comfort option or this reason an cost.

sfax · 02-08-2011, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by X3buyerScotland

Exactly as stated. The car does not know whose hand is on the door handle but when it received the correct retransmitted code it unlocks. The difference is that with comfort both the key and car are constantly transmitting so can constantly be recorded. With a button press this is much harder to capture in time. I should add I did not go for the comfort option or this reason an cost.

I agree but I don't think that the key constantly transmits, it just listens for a signal to transmit. Without comfort access the key does nothing until you press the button to transmit.

The process also has to start from scanner 1 at the car. It can't start from scanner 2 next to the driver.

It is a worry IMO

X5plug-in · 02-08-2011, 06:19 AM

Correct again, having reread the article. You would think they would have thought of this. Without going into details for security reasons I am pretty sure the kit required to do this would cost less than £300. The reporter headline reads "Open sesame" and talks of an "undetectable crime".

Nahoa · 02-08-2011, 06:25 AM

I'd like to see someone demo it, a beer says they can't. I believe they have thought of that. It's not exactly a rocket science idea for those designing such a system. If folks could that easily steal $50k to $180k cars, they'd be running away daily and none us would be able to afford insurance.

X5plug-in · 02-08-2011, 06:54 AM

Photos in paper show reporter doing it. Pint of extra cold for me please!

sfax · 02-08-2011, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nahoa

I'd like to see someone demo it, a beer says they can't. I believe they have thought of that. It's not exactly a rocket science idea for those designing such a system. If folks could that easily steal $50k to $180k cars, they'd be running away daily and none us would be able to afford insurance.

I agree 100% that they should have considered this and it should be protected against but I would like to know a little bit more about how secure this system really is. The article in question is in a broadsheet newspaper and they don't generally print any old rubbish. Would be good to get some more info but I can't bring myself to pay Murdoch just to read one article in his subscription newspaper.

One would think that the unlock code would also be different to the start code so that just getting hold of a one-time unlock code and gaining access to the inside of the vehicle wouldn't allow you to drive it away using a device that only knows the unlock code (if that makes sense). It would allow you to take the handbrake off and push it into a lorry.....

I think I would be right in saying that in the UK most expensive cars are stolen from people's driveways after car keys are stolen from the house. And then they're in a container on their way to Africa before you know it. For this reason you should never leave any car keys anywhere in your house if your car is there but you aren't. I go a step further and set the alarm downstairs at night and sleep next to my car keys

sfax · 02-08-2011, 10:57 AM

Here is a link with some more details. IMO you are probably as likely to be caught out by this with or without comfort access. Without because of the range of transmission on the remote key could make it very hard for you to spot someone intercepting your unlock signal. With because someone could follow you and the 2nd person could approach your car when you are out of sight.

http://www.technologyreview.com/comp...037/page1/?a=f

alpineweiss · 02-08-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tauvil

Actually touch (like an iPhone) or will it work through gloves? I.e., will have to take my gloves off when entering or leaving the vehicle?

Works with gloves

Nahoa · 02-08-2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfax

I go a step further and set the alarm downstairs at night and sleep next to my car keys

I plan to sleep in the car armed to the teeth and one eye open as the keys dangle tantalizingly on the wall in the garage . . . .

. . . which you'd expect from an American, right?

sfax · 02-09-2011, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nahoa

I plan to sleep in the car armed to the teeth and one eye open as the keys dangle tantalizingly on the wall in the garage . . . .

. . . which you'd expect from an American, right?

I can see how the whole burgle + steal car routine isn't quite such an attractive proposition when the owner has a gun!

bluesmachine · 02-09-2011, 07:42 AM

I think some of this concern also has to do with where one lives. If you live in crime central then it may be of a concern.

Personally, I am more concerned with bears in my backyard ripping down my bird feeders and coyotees stealing and eating my cat then someone stealing my car code and taking my car...

02-07-2011, 02:53 PM	#1
Andrewob Private 13 Rep 58 Posts Drives: X3 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Cardiff iTrader: (0)	Keyless entry? I have ordered the access pack which includes keyless entry and exit. How is the car unlocked? Is it, as you approach the car or do you have to pull on the door handle to unlock? Likewise locking, do you just walk away from the car? Thanks
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02-07-2011, 02:57 PM	#2
pwdrskr Private First Class 11 Rep 160 Posts Drives: 2013 Audi allroad Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Seattle, WA iTrader: (1)	When you place your hand on the door handle, the car will unlock. To lock, there is ~1 inch square spot on the handle that you touch with a finger. You must have the key on your person...
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02-07-2011, 03:18 PM	#3
Tauvil Enlisted Member 1 Rep 43 Posts Drives: 2011 X3 35i - Black Sapphire Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	Actually touch (like an iPhone) or will it work through gloves? I.e., will have to take my gloves off when entering or leaving the vehicle?
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02-07-2011, 03:19 PM	#4
X5plug-in Lieutenant 73 Rep 532 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Sorry to depress you but you might want to read the Sunday Times article from yesterday on how crooks are cloning these systems to steal cars where proximity both unlocks the car and also enables ignition. Clever. Rare. Worrying.
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02-07-2011, 03:39 PM	#5
Andrewob Private 13 Rep 58 Posts Drives: X3 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Cardiff iTrader: (0)	That is quite worrying in that my office is quite close to where the x3 will be parked!!
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02-07-2011, 07:25 PM	#7
Nahoa Lieutenant Colonel 45 Rep 1,876 Posts Drives: F25 35i Mineral Silver/Black Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia iTrader: (0)	Comfort Access works with gloves on. Just tested it both opening and closing (by placing finger on ridged portion of door handle). The gloves were not too thick. IPhone won't work with them, but they're not serious winter backcountry gloves either. Stealing codes? People will always try and sometimes succeed. I don't buy that Comfort Access is any more susceptible than a general remote. What I think I understand from the BMW approach to codes and ignitions disablers leaves me believing we BMW owners are better protected than most folks out there. If they really want my car, they'll get it. That's what insurance is for. Very few absolutes out there. No way I'd miss out on the awesome convenience of Comfort Access on the basis of that "designed to sell" article. __________________
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02-07-2011, 07:59 PM	#8
marmite Private First Class 13 Rep 184 Posts Drives: E91 330d Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	I haven't read the article either... But - I have a fair idea how comfort access works and have it on my existing BMW. A conventional remote, you press a button, it transmits an encrypted code to the car's receiver. A comfort access remote is detected by proximity, and then sends an encrypted code to the car's receiver. So - either way the encryption code can be intercepted - and as Nahoa mentions, with comfort access you need to be closer to the car than you do with a conventional remote. If I'm more than a few feet from my car and someone else puts their hand through the door handle - nothing happens. If some thief was close enough to be able to open the door by touch, you'd definitely know about it - they might as well just wait for you to open the door when you're getting out and push you out of the way - then to start the car, you would need to be very close, and they'd probably have to leave the door open. I haven't checked actually - but I don't think you can start the car if there's no key physically inside the car (in the same way you can't lock the car with comfort access, if you've accidentally left the key inside) Ok, so the encryption code can be intercepted either way - the comfort access doesn't make it more or less secure in that respect.. But, it's not a fixed code - it will do no good for a criminal with a scanner to capture the code, wait for you to leave and resend it.. - the code changes with every transmission. Based on a seed value and an generation algorithm and probably a fixed code too. To know what code to send, you'd need to know all of those, and it would be virtually impossible to work out the seed value even if you knew the generation algorithm. This kind of code security is common to secure networks - I have two fobs that generate a new code every 30 secs that work on this principle and are used to access some of my banking accounts and my works private networks. So in short, I wouldn't worry about comfort access vulnerabilities and I'm ordering it again on the X3 - it's really nice!
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02-08-2011, 12:17 AM	#9
X5plug-in Lieutenant 73 Rep 532 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Only have the print version. The paper claims comfort is a bigger risk as no button press is involved. Scanner 1 stands by car. Scanner 2 follows driver. 2 captures signal & sends to 1 who retransmits to car. Car thinks driver is next to car, unlocks and can be driven away. Industry, not just BMW which is listed, said to be worried.
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02-08-2011, 02:16 AM	#10
perto Private First Class 11 Rep 141 Posts Drives: BMW I3S + IX40 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Norway iTrader: (0)	I reed the same article in a Norwegian magazine one month ago, they mentioned its different system from car manufacturer to car manufacturer so its possible BMW not have the easiest system to transmit the signal.
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02-08-2011, 03:49 AM	#12
X5plug-in Lieutenant 73 Rep 532 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Exactly as stated. The car does not know whose hand is on the door handle but when it received the correct retransmitted code it unlocks. The difference is that with comfort both the key and car are constantly transmitting so can constantly be recorded. With a button press this is much harder to capture in time. I should add I did not go for the comfort option or this reason an cost.
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02-08-2011, 06:19 AM	#14
X5plug-in Lieutenant 73 Rep 532 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Correct again, having reread the article. You would think they would have thought of this. Without going into details for security reasons I am pretty sure the kit required to do this would cost less than £300. The reporter headline reads "Open sesame" and talks of an "undetectable crime".
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02-08-2011, 06:25 AM	#15
Nahoa Lieutenant Colonel 45 Rep 1,876 Posts Drives: F25 35i Mineral Silver/Black Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia iTrader: (0)	I'd like to see someone demo it, a beer says they can't. I believe they have thought of that. It's not exactly a rocket science idea for those designing such a system. If folks could that easily steal $50k to $180k cars, they'd be running away daily and none us would be able to afford insurance. __________________
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02-08-2011, 06:54 AM	#16
X5plug-in Lieutenant 73 Rep 532 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: UK iTrader: (0)	Photos in paper show reporter doing it. Pint of extra cold for me please!
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02-08-2011, 10:57 AM	#18
sfax Brigadier General 91 Rep 3,855 Posts Drives: BMW X3 2011 F25 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Berkshire, UK iTrader: (0)	Here is a link with some more details. IMO you are probably as likely to be caught out by this with or without comfort access. Without because of the range of transmission on the remote key could make it very hard for you to spot someone intercepting your unlock signal. With because someone could follow you and the 2nd person could approach your car when you are out of sight. http://www.technologyreview.com/comp...037/page1/?a=f __________________ F25 xDrive20d SE __ professional multimedia package \| dynamic package \| climate package \| 309s \| xline \| xenons \| electric seats \| folding mirrors \| business speakers
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02-09-2011, 07:42 AM	#22
bluesmachine Private First Class 39 Rep 169 Posts Drives: 2023 X5 45e blue/cognac Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: N'England iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW X3 35i [0.00] 1998 BMW 328ic [0.00]	I think some of this concern also has to do with where one lives. If you live in crime central then it may be of a concern. Personally, I am more concerned with bears in my backyard ripping down my bird feeders and coyotees stealing and eating my cat then someone stealing my car code and taking my car...
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