[Mako]

I went to the same guy my dad has been using for 15 years, I leased a Z4 from him 7 years ago but that was the only business I had done with him so far.

After waiting an hour for him (my fault, didn't make an appointment on a saturday morning) we talk a little about the X3 and the whole time he seems like he doesn't care about me or my order (a little disturbing) and I get it to the $55,125 mark they give me an offer on my trade in (same as carmax) and then he tells me the best he can do is $1,000 off the car and thats only because of the business my dad has given him (in the last 3 years he has bought a M3, X5, and mini S Vert, owns all three still). I almost walked out right at that moment, instead I sat back and told him I can get a lot more than that at other dealers but went to them out of family loyalty. we go back and fourth, he tells me they have no spots in their alotment so there is no reason for them to discount any more, comes back 15 minutes later saying there were no spots because they were all filled by 28i dealer stock orders He then goes on to tell me they only have 6.5% on it above invoice (lie) and that he only makes 20% commission on the amount over invoice (no clue about that). He finally agrees with my offer of $52K, which isn't earth shattering and I know people on this site have done better. he also told me that at some point the sale isn't worth it to him because he has to spend 6 hours between the order and going over the car with us when it comes in and he doesn't want to work for $10/hour...

I also mention the tire swap that a few people on these forums have done, swapping out the all season from the M Sport for summer performance for a small fee (tires themselves are $120 more for summer versions). I know thats mostly a favor thing and just something you do for the customer to show you appreciate their business, we all know they will re-sale the all seasons as NEW and their true cost is under $200 to do the swap. I was probably willing to pay up to $400 extra for them to do it for me. He just said to go to a tire store and see what they can do because BMW will cost more than its worth!

my order is already in the system and a down payment has been made so I am not about to cancel the order, but I am at the point where if anything goes wrong upon pickup (price changes, offer on my trade in is lower...) I will walk, pretty sure in the US you can walk for any reason until pickup and get your deposit back in full. Were my expectations too high here? I am in sales myself so I sometimes expect too much from others working on commission.

[Lotus7]

Originally Posted by Mako

..." he also told me that at some point the sale isn't worth it to him because he has to spend 6 hours between the order and going over the car with us when it comes in and he doesn't want to work for $10/hour...

At that point you should have said "Sorry to have bothered you" and headed out the door. There is no point in spending your money to support a dealership with such arrogant staff. Maybe that salesman would be happier collecting unemployment compensation.

[LEDZEP]

Okay, this is just my opinion... to which everyone is entitled and which I reserve the right to change at any moment... but with that disclaimer aside here is what I think:

I don't think you are expecting too much. My first rule when dealing with people is that I try not to always expect the favorable answer to my questions, but I do expect my questions to be taken seriously and answered seriously. I think there are many truths to what he told you... the dealer makes on average about 7% on new cars, and out of that comes some fees that BMW charges. They make the real money on used cars. I also have a relationship with my dealership and like things to be fair both ways, so I split the profit with them and everyone is content.

The salesman truly doesn't make much on the deal. I know that on the past two BMW's I've purchased, the salesman was down to the bottom amount that they give them for selling a car... about $150-$200. Because I understand that, and because I care about the relationship, I always give him a personal gift, usually a gift certificate to his favorite restaurant so he can take his wife to dinner on me.

But what makes me INSANE is when I feel like I'm not listened to, or that my expectations are not addressed seriously. I usually make it known that I'm not happy with that.

As far as the tires, introduce yourself to the service manager and have that conversation with him/her. They are the ones who would have to do it anyway... plus it gets you started off on a relationship with the service manager.

[greg2step]

hmmmm $52k on an MSRP of $55,125 sounds reasonable - still sounds like he isn't honest...

2 things about build slots - any dealer i talked to would gladly switch a build slot that was slated for dealer inventory to sold to me w/ my X3 specs as long as the slot was available and put down my deposit.

Also, I was under the impression that build slots were model specific. i.e. a dealer has a 28i slot or a 35i slot - can be customized within that confine, but a 28i slot couldn't be ordered as a 35i. sounds like you orderd a 35i - so that line about 28i build slots sounds fake... maybe i'm wrong, but that was the impression I had from 2 different dealers around here.

[Mako]

yeah, I went in there wanting the deal for $52,000 which i thought would leave $1,000 in it for the dealership (over invoice), he would get $200 plus whatever else the dealers pay these guys. Some people go in wanting invoice or leave the dealer with $300 profit. The fact that he went from $1,000 to accepting my offer of $3,125 was kind of unexpected though.

I can get over the negotiation part quickly because I know thats the "dirty" side of the sales business, I try to maximize my profit on every order and I am sure they do too. But its the whole attitude like something else was happening outside his office that was more interesting, him always looking out the window instead of at me, not even wanting to bother with looking into the tire thing. See if I ever can find a sales guy/gal that pays attention to me like I am the center of the universe while we are making the deal and they will try to get extra little things done that I want, I will never leave that sales rep, and Led you have a good point with the gift, most people expect a gift from the dealership, but I think it should go both ways, dealer gives you $50 BMW accessory gift as a thank you and you give the sales guy a $50 gift card like you said, depending on the deal you got that could be 25% of his commission and if he saved you more than other sales advisors would have, its worth the $50 thank you, right?

[Mako]

Originally Posted by greg2step

hmmmm $52k on an MSRP of $55,125 sounds reasonable - still sounds like he isn't honest...

2 things about build slots - any dealer i talked to would gladly switch a build slot that was slated for dealer inventory to sold to me w/ my X3 specs as long as the slot was available and put down my deposit.

Also, I was under the impression that build slots were model specific. i.e. a dealer has a 28i slot or a 35i slot - can be customized within that confine, but a 28i slot couldn't be ordered as a 35i. sounds like you orderd a 35i - so that line about 28i build slots sounds fake... maybe i'm wrong, but that was the impression I had from 2 different dealers around here.

he told me they put all their dealer slots as 28i because it moves the most off the floor while people buying the 35i normally custom order it, no clue to the truth behind that. but he made it sound like its an X3 slot, not engine slots.

[LEDZEP]

Until you get into the ///M line, I think it is model-generic allocation not configuration or engine/trim-line specific. But if a dealer has allocation for 30 3 Series', he can't order 27 M3's... but they could be pretty much any other build. It is basically production line driven. If they come off the same line, they are the same allocation.

After re-reading the $10/hr comment and the points you make about him acting like he'd rather be doing anything but dealing with you - I would personally be offended too. Of course, telling him about is not likely to do much good... as arrogant asswipes don't generally hear criticism (just look at me for God's sake!). Get the GM's business card and send him an email. Tell him that the sales experience has been very unsatisfying because of the salesman's attitude and lack of people skills, and that unless something significant changes - the post sales survey with BMW is going to reflect that.

They live and die by those surveys, so that's a threat to everyone at the dealership. I like to try and communicate my perception of a problem and give them a chance to fix it before I crucify them on a survey or something, but if you don't feel the loyalty then either way....

I once had a MB salesman that was such a douche... I was looking at C Class sedans, and the whole time he was acting like your guy. I finally said "look, its obvious that unless I'm here for an S Class you're not very interested, so I'll stop wasting your time". And walked out.

[Beyu]

Originally Posted by Mako

he told me they put all their dealer slots as 28i because it moves the most off the floor while people buying the 35i normally custom order it, no clue to the truth behind that. but he made it sound like its an X3 slot, not engine slots.

That's understandable since most buyers for any BMW model usually pick the 28i over a more powerful engine so that might affect how many engines BMW produces for one type. I'm not sure if people who order the 35i are more likely to custom order but back when I first put in a order for my X3 my salesperson asked me if I'd rather switch to a 28i because they had two unclaimed 28i spots and no 35i, lucky someone canceled their order and I got bumped up.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience Mako, I see you on the forum all the time trying to research about the X3 and now that you've finally made the commitment and went to a dealership to place your order you had to deal with a guy like this.

PS: You've mentioned that your dad bought 3 cars from the same salesperson within the last 3 years, any reason why your dad keeps going back to him if the salesperson seems to have such a bad attitude?

[greg2step]

when i placed my order on Aug 13 i was told i could get it 1-2 weeks earlier if it was a 28i because the dealer had a late august build slot for a 28i, and an early sept build slot for a 35i. It was really a matter of order the 28i that day or it was probably too late for custom specs. not to say my dealer was 100% honest but it didn't seem like a scam to me.

also, with that price of $52k, did that include your $1000 owner loyalty rebate or was that separate?

[Mako]

Originally Posted by LEDZEP

Until you get into the ///M line, I think it is model-generic allocation not configuration or engine/trim-line specific. But if a dealer has allocation for 30 3 Series', he can't order 27 M3's... but they could be pretty much any other build. It is basically production line driven. If they come off the same line, they are the same allocation.

After re-reading the $10/hr comment and the points you make about him acting like he'd rather be doing anything but dealing with you - I would personally be offended too. Of course, telling him about is not likely to do much good... as arrogant asswipes don't generally hear criticism (just look at me for God's sake!). Get the GM's business card and send him an email. Tell him that the sales experience has been very unsatisfying because of the salesman's attitude and lack of people skills, and that unless something significant changes - the post sales survey with BMW is going to reflect that.

They live and die by those surveys, so that's a threat to everyone at the dealership. I like to try and communicate my perception of a problem and give them a chance to fix it before I crucify them on a survey or something, but if you don't feel the loyalty then either way....

I once had a MB salesman that was such a douche... I was looking at C Class sedans, and the whole time he was acting like your guy. I finally said "look, its obvious that unless I'm here for an S Class you're not very interested, so I'll stop wasting your time". And walked out.

I think thats it, even while getting a fully loaded X3, its still the bottom tier to them, they would rather have that 5 or 7 series buyer and not just because of the higher MSRP but they are more likely to pay more over invoice than the 3 series and X3 buyers. So a $60K car with a guy okay getting 3% off is a much better customer for that salesguy. of course I could be making $1 million a year and looking to buy a fully loaded M6, I am still going to nickle and dime the dealer because thats what I do (they do it right back to us) I don't want to pay more than $1,000 over invoice on any car I buy, you know BMW makes more gross profit the more expensive the car is, even if they say its still 7% margins...

[Mako]

Originally Posted by Beyu

That's understandable since most buyers for any BMW model usually pick the 28i over a more powerful engine so that might affect how many engines BMW produces for one type. I'm not sure if people who order the 35i are more likely to custom order but back when I first put in a order for my X3 my salesperson asked me if I'd rather switch to a 28i because they had two unclaimed 28i spots and no 35i, lucky someone canceled their order and I got bumped up.

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience Mako, I see you on the forum all the time trying to research about the X3 and now that you've finally made the commitment and went to a dealership to place your order you had to deal with a guy like this.

PS: You've mentioned that your dad bought 3 cars from the same salesperson within the last 3 years, any reason why your dad keeps going back to him if the salesperson seems to have such a bad attitude?

well my father is also a salesman but for somereason is a sucker as well! he buys into their BS and believes them when they say they are giving him a great deal, of course he is also in his 60s and doesn't know how to use the internet when he bought his M3 I told him that he could have got another 3% off (before he bought it) and he still went to his guy... My dad has more loyalty than me though (think its his generation vs mine)

[LEDZEP]

Originally Posted by Mako

I think thats it, even while getting a fully loaded X3, its still the bottom tier to them, they would rather have that 5 or 7 series buyer and not just because of the higher MSRP but they are more likely to pay more over invoice than the 3 series and X3 buyers. So a $60K car with a guy okay getting 3% off is a much better customer for that salesguy. of course I could be making $1 million a year and looking to buy a fully loaded M6, I am still going to nickle and dime the dealer because thats what I do (they do it right back to us) I don't want to pay more than $1,000 over invoice on any car I buy, you know BMW makes more gross profit the more expensive the car is, even if they say its still 7% margins...

I agree. But also consider that if BMW only sold 5 and 7 Series vehicles, they would be, at best, a very small 'specialty brand' company. The 3 Series is their bread and butter. There is something to be said for lower margin and higher volume. The 1 Series buyers are quite likely to be those new to the brand, and therefore should be nurtured to become lifelong loyal customers. BMW recognizes this, and the dealership owners and general managers most likely do too.... they just don't do a good job of getting the rank and file sales staff to.

[lhsa]

I would've walked beforehand. Any salesman that acts like he's doing me a favor doesn't win my business, regardless of whatever "relationship" there may be - which doesn't sound like much in your case anyway. It's not the price, it's the principle and putting money into some guys pocket who provides worse customer service than a fast food joint doesn't make sense, especially in this economy.

I think you're dad was loyal to him solely because of the BS lines he delivered.

If this were a 1M, you need to take where you can get it so you bear with the problems because you have no choice. Here, X3's are a commodity and even if you need to buy remote or another BMW dealer, you could do so without much fanfare.

Now the deposit issue is different. You need to review what you signed when you placed a deposit to ensure there wasn't any "non-refundable deposit" language. Certain states might prohibit them, but some don't, so you're assumption that you could always back it isn't correct. If you did sign something along those lines and the law permits it, you'll have an uphill battle getting the deposit back. Otherwise, you should be able to get the deposit back, but the dealership might make it difficult and you may even need to file a chargeback with your CC company or file a small claims court proceeding. Given the CA's attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't refund the deposit without some pressure.

Where are you located?

[Lotus7]

Here are the 22 professions included in the Gallup poll ranked by the percentage of Americans who gave its practitioners a “low” or “very low” rating for honesty and ethical standards:

1. Members of Congress (55%)
2. Car salesman (51%)
3. Senators (49%)
4. Stockbrokers (46%)
5. HMO Managers (43%)
6. Insurance salesmen (42%)
7. Lawyers (40%)
8. Advertising practitioners (38%)
9. Business executives (38%)
10. State governors (35%)
11. Bankers (33%)
12. Journalists (31%)
13. Psychiatrists (15%)
14. Chiropractors (12%)
15. College teachers (11%)
16. Clergy (10%)
17. Policemen (10%)
18. Dentists (7%)
19. Medical doctors (7%)
20. Pharmacists (5%)
21. Engineers (4%)
22. Nurses (2%)

I think it says something about the "profession" when the only group trusted less are elected members of Congress.

Is there something about the occupation that attracts "less then ethical" individuals? Or is the "job" structured so that only the "low-lives" can make a living at it?

Car companies come and go, marketing schemes come and go, dealerships have become almost "spa-like" in some locations, but the perception of car salesmen has seemingly not changed for half a century.

As vehicles have become much more sophisticated, the knowledge level of the sales staff (at least in my limited experience) has not kept pace. I'd much rather just configure a vehicle on-line myself without any "help" from a "salesman" who knows much less about the car than I do. That's essentially what I did when I ordered my X3. The dealer I went to was happy to copy my "package and option" list to his computer and order exactly what I wanted.

A couple of years ago when ordering an Audi A4, I did the same. The first dealer I went to looked at the list and then said, "you really don't want to do that because you'll have to wait 3-months for delivery". "How about this one we have in stock right now in that color?" He proceeded to show me the computer spec list for a car that was nothing like what I wanted. I immediately thanked him for his time and headed for the door, while he sputtered "Wait, wait, I know we can make a deal on this one"...NOT.

Any sales person who does not listen is a lost cause in my book, does not deserve my time or cash, and certainly does not get a second chance.

[jbinbi]

Guy who works for me father in law owns a few dealerships, and he worked there as well. Interesting hear the 'real' stories.

Complain to general manager. explain how many cars you/your family has purchased in the past few years (lots). it is easy to make sales to repeat clients, very hard to get new ones, so most salespeople realize this and will bend over backwards to keep a repeat client.

also, there are lots of 'soft' dollars available or discounted $s, that would cost you x, but cost the dealership a fraction. Parts, labor, service, loaners, etc. etc. Once you complain and explain how you were treated, they should offer you some of these to make you feel like a valued client.

They should want to keep your families biz, and bend over backwards so you tell your siblings, cousins, and friends what a great place they are to do business with.

Bottom line in this industry is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Speak to general manager, service manager, bmw rep, etc. bad survey means no or less holdback ($ to dealership from bmw. that is significant part of profit)

[BimmerEnthusiast99]

Originally Posted by Mako

he also told me that at some point the sale isn't worth it to him because he has to spend 6 hours between the order and going over the car with us when it comes in and he doesn't want to work for $10/hour...

Sounds like a jerk. No way he should feel comfortable enough with you to speak such nonsense. I would've walked. But the deal you got doesn't sound that bad, so don't sweat it, it's done.