[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Jason

Sorry, my mistake with the years

Production starts December 2015 as before.

Doh! That really throws a wrench in the works for my plan. See what you can do about getting that production date moved up, would you?

[Mako]

Originally Posted by WWM3

I personally like the look of the X4 too. But if it were my money I wouldn't pay more for an X4 than an X3 to receive less utility when one of the only reasons I would buy such a vehicle is its utility. Seems backwards to me. But if one liked the looks of an X4 a lot more than an X3 well hey it's their money.

We all have opinions and would like to see BMW do what we think would be best. I think most of us understand that BMW makes cars to make money, but what makes BMW such a valuable brand is the enthusiasm and loyalty of its customers. A lot of us here are passionate about these cars and this brand. Especially M cars. So, yes, I will and others will constructively criticize BMW (or "hate")on these forums when we feel it is warranted.

But I would also add that I generally agree with your points.

At first I felt the same way, but when you think about it why does a 4 series coupe cost more than a 3 series sedan? its all about style and preference. You can buy a watch for $1500 that does the same thing as a $100 watch (and the $100 watch maybe more accurate). If you are buying a BMW you already gave up on the "practical and utility" things, otherwise you could buy a Mazda or Hyundai.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

That bolded section really gets to the point, and is exactly why I think M has to deliver with the M2 in a big way. I'm repeating myself, but the 1M got a pass because it was such a fantastically fun car to drive. There's a very real risk that the M2 will suffer from the same numbness as other recent M models. I hope BMW figures this out before they deliver the car.

The whole "real M engine" conversation is very frustrating to me. On one side, you've got people shouting down anyone who complains that the N55B30T0 isn't a real M engine. The argument seems to be: "if the performance is there, why complain?" Well, because there is more to a great car than performance.

Back when I drove a MkV GTI, a Nissan Altima V6 had better 0-60 performance. Does that make the Nissan Altima equivalent to a GTI? Hell no! Not if you're a car enthusiast. The experience of driving the GTI was worlds apart from an Altima. Granted, the things that differentiated the GTI from the rest of the automotive world were far fewer than the things that differentiate an M-car from the rest of the pack, but it was that short list of things that made all the difference.

The M2 has one fewer things on its list of differentiating factors. Is that the end of the world? No, of course not. I hope I'm not coming across to breathlessly desperate over that fact. The M2 is still very high on my list of cars that could replace my current M, but I will still lament the absence of the S65 in my life. Sorry of that sounds a little to melodramatic, but that's how I feel about cars. Every time I start my car, I leave the door open so I can hear it. It's that experience that drove me to M. If that erodes too far, I'll go looking elsewhere.

Exactly.

There's the subjective evaluation of "real M car", and then there's the objective evaluation. If a car is built by M GmbH, it's a "real M car". End of story. You don't have to like a car for it to be a real M car.

How about you not act so entitled as to dictate what other people should or shouldn't value in an automobile? I do not begrudge the M-Performance lineup. In fact, I love the fact that BMW have introduced the M-Performance line. I wish they had done it years ago, so I could have driven one!

I don't like the phrasing "real M". It sounds elitist, so I'm going to avoid it from here on. Apparently some people cannot be bothered to be generous in their interpretation when someone says "real M", so we must avoid that phrasing altogether.

My complaint is this: In the past cars developed by M GmbH placed a very high priority on all of the things that automotive enthusiasts held dear. All the components that delivered excellent handling and performance were reworked by M. This meant dramatically upgraded suspension, improved steering response, and an engine that delivered not only performance, but excitement. By using the N55B30T0 in the M2, M GmbH has shown that they are willing to compromise on the last item.

Let's avoid a false dichotomy here. It's all shades of gray. It's hard to argue that a bespoke (or mostly bespoke) engine wasn't a big part of the draw of an M car, even dating back to the E30 M3. Case in point, the US model E30 M3 got a half-ass M-engine, and it's the most overlooked of the M3 lineup.

This is great news for the X4 M40i. I'm thrilled, especially considered the fact that this car is on my list of potential purchases. I just think it's concerning that M GmbH have chosen to forego a special variation of the N55 in the M2 in lieu of a what is becoming a series production engine.

That's close, but as cSurf pointed out above, it's more the other way around. The drag is that the X4 M40i engine is being used in the M2, rather than the other way around

Great points. Just want to respond to your reply.

I don't dislike the X5M (I would definitely pick up a used one for DD) and you have a valid point with regards to who built it. In reality it is a full blown M car.

However, my statement that its not a real M car is my opinion and that's why I said it sounds wrong and that most here don't think of it as one. To me (and most likely some others) the x5m and x6m are bastards. They are not really representative of what M stands for. When I think of everything I love/loved about the M cars I have owned those vehicles have very little in common with them.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by Mako

At first I felt the same way, but when you think about it why does a 4 series coupe cost more than a 3 series sedan? its all about style and preference. You can buy a watch for $1500 that does the same thing as a $100 watch (and the $100 watch maybe more accurate). If you are buying a BMW you already gave up on the "practical and utility" things, otherwise you could buy a Mazda or Hyundai.

This is unquestionable true. But like I said, personally, if I'm buying an SUV, a vehicle which sacrifices a lot of style, comfort, speed, dynamics, driving fun, etc. for utility it would seem backwards to me to buy one that loses a lot of what it's supposed to gain from those sacrifices. And then I would have to pay more for it vs. the model which provides more utility. Just the way I look at it.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by vladberca

I can't wait to see how is performing against Macan Turbo.
I think that they will have close prices.

This pricing is apples to apples (since a 228i base has many less standard features than the 235m)

228i coupe = $38,995 (does not include track package!)
235m coupe = $44,050
difference = $5,055

(prices are with same options)
X4 28i = $45,650
X4 35i = $48,950
difference = $3,300 (basically the price you are paying for engine upgrade)

point is the M40i isn't going to add $10,000 to the price, in fact it will probably only add another $3,000 or so to the price (over the 35i), $5,000 on the high end.

meaning a nicely loaded X4 M40i should be no more than $65,000 (with the normal 4 year free maintenance)

A Porsche Macan Turbo is $73,295 starting and $78,000 with the same options as the nicely loaded X4. Plus maintenance of a Porsche Turbo engine for 4 years!

no way you can compare a Macan Turbo to the X4 M40i, the Macan S will be the correct comparison and price will pretty much be a tie (with same options), I have a feeling the X4 will win comparison tests (since the 35i is already on its heels)

[GuidoDoc]

Do we know what BMW is doing to get that kind of power from the n55? Are they changing internal engine parts or is it a combination of more boost, bigger intercooler, intake and exhaust changes, etc.?

It may be splitting hairs but if the main engine hardware is the same then I get people's complaint about an M2 having this engine.

[5against8]

Anyone know if we'll get a 6MT in the US as some have reported? That would seal the deal for me

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by WWM3

However, my statement that its not a real M car is my opinion and that's why I said it sounds wrong and that most here don't think of it as one. To me (and most likely some others) the x5m and x6m are bastards. They are not really representative of what M stands for. When I think of everything I love/loved about the M cars I have owned those vehicles have very little in common with them.

Hate to pick on you, but this is exactly why people like Mako get aggravated with the "real M" stuff. Whether or not a vehicle is or isn't a "real M" is a matter of manufacture, not opinion. I would respectfully ask that everyone stop using that language in the interest of developing a more nuanced discourse. Everything you said could be restated without that phrasing, and it instantly becomes less of a hot button issue.

To further pick a fight where I said I didn't want to lol I take issue with the entire stance. The XNM vehicles are to standard SUVs what MN cars are to standard cars. What does M stand for? If we trace it back to the very beginning, M took a standard road car and make it in to a superstar. Could the same not be said for the X5M and X6M? They're not real M cars because they're not cars at all, but they are still M made. They both get suspensions developed specifically for the M models, and they both get M engines. They're still SUVs, but they've been given the proper M treatment.

Every seems to take issue with the fact that they're SUVs, but that's a baseless stance from which to make an argument. Ever heard of the European Truck Racing Championships? Enthusiasm for all things automobile knows no boundaries. I have no desire to own a racing semi, or any semi for that matter, but I'm sure Volvo enthusiasts don't begrudge Volvo for making racing semis.

What "makes something M", is what "M makes". If M makes very special SUVs, then very special SUVs are real M. There's far more to be concerned about with regard to the dilution of M's values than the fact that they chose to make class-leading performance SUVs.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by liborio

Do we know what BMW is doing to get that kind of power from the n55? Are they changing internal engine parts or is it a combination of more boost, bigger intercooler, intake and exhaust changes, etc.?

It may be splitting hairs but if the main engine hardware is the same then I get people's complaint about an M2 having this engine.

We don't have any confirmation yet, but there is suspicion that there will be upgrades to the engine internals. Maybe a forged crank, for example, but it will retain the same N55 engine block. This is unlike the S55, which got an entirely different block.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by WWM3

X5M is a full blown M car just doesn't sound right. I understand your reasoning, but I bet you would struggle to find many on here who think X5Ms and X6Ms are real M cars.

Well. Sure. Especially the ones that have never driven an X5m or x6m. It's easy to declare " it's not a real M car " ( as if it's the person that actually decides).. But guess what. BMW decides what a real M car is. Not the enthusiast.

In my experience , any enthusiast that actually drives an M car, generally comes away realizing DAMN that's a helluva car, whether it be an X5M SAV, an M6 gran coupe, a 1M coupe or an M3 sedan.

Look at all the fools that declared the 1M " not a proper M car" .

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by analogue

The 1M has the same engine as the Z4 3.5is.

But as others mention, once you drive it, there is simply no reason to question the choice except dogmatic nonsense.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by wdeerfield

This is not the x4m. It's an m-performance x4. That's what people have issues with when using a m-esque engine that is designed for the "m"2.

Definitely i Agree here...

Which makes me wonder,,, what if the x4 sells so well and BMW AG decides to actually make an X4M and/ or an X3M.... What would they put in it ? an S55?

[Bimar]

Originally Posted by jlstyle

So why do you buy this car instead of Macan? Any thoughts? I can't seem to find a single answer on my own.

This ----->http://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1038394

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by inamik75

This ----->http://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1038394

Thanks for dropping the science...

Nice post. Everything isn't always greener on the Porsche side of the fence.

[Mako]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Definitely i Agree here...

Which makes me wonder,,, what if the x4 sells so well and BMW AG decides to actually make an X4M and/ or an X3M.... What would they put in it ? an S55?

well it would make sense! the X3/X4 are similar in price to the 3/4 series and are supposed to be aligned with them.

BMW already stated there will be no full M version for the current model cycle, but the new X3 is only 3 years away and I would be shocked if they didn't plan on a full M version since Audi has a SQ5 (although that will compete with the M40i), Porsche has the Macan Turbo, Mercedes will probably have an AMG GLK...

Hopefully the new X3/X4 gets interior upgrades to actually make them similar to the 3/4 series (since the current ones use cheaper materials). Then why not put the S55 in them, with AWD and hopefully being even lighter than the current X3/X4 those would be fun as hell to drive.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Definitely i Agree here...

Which makes me wonder,,, what if the x4 sells so well and BMW AG decides to actually make an X4M and/ or an X3M.... What would they put in it ? an S55?

This is the test. It is very probably that the next X3 and X4 will receive full M models, as of now it is of unknown quantity.

The M Performance is laying the groundwork for the future. An actual X4 M was considered but because of the F26 life cycle it will be replaced by the G02 in 2018 which gives the first X4 just over 4 years on the market.
It was not deemed economically viable so the M Performance is the stop-gap and to test the potential and demand for a further performance model.

It could be a decision to regret with a full M model as the X4 is selling exceptionally well in its first few months on the global market.
It is proving popular as in the early days of the first X6.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Hate to pick on you, but this is exactly why people like Mako get aggravated with the "real M" stuff. Whether or not a vehicle is or isn't a "real M" is a matter of manufacture, not opinion. I would respectfully ask that everyone stop using that language in the interest of developing a more nuanced discourse. Everything you said could be restated without that phrasing, and it instantly becomes less of a hot button issue.

To further pick a fight where I said I didn't want to lol I take issue with the entire stance. The XNM vehicles are to standard SUVs what MN cars are to standard cars. What does M stand for? If we trace it back to the very beginning, M took a standard road car and make it in to a superstar. Could the same not be said for the X5M and X6M? They're not real M cars because they're not cars at all, but they are still M made. They both get suspensions developed specifically for the M models, and they both get M engines. They're still SUVs, but they've been given the proper M treatment.

Every seems to take issue with the fact that they're SUVs, but that's a baseless stance from which to make an argument. Ever heard of the European Truck Racing Championships? Enthusiasm for all things automobile knows no boundaries. I have no desire to own a racing semi, or any semi for that matter, but I'm sure Volvo enthusiasts don't begrudge Volvo for making racing semis.

What "makes something M", is what "M makes". If M makes very special SUVs, then very special SUVs are real M. There's far more to be concerned about with regard to the dilution of M's values than the fact that they chose to make class-leading performance SUVs.

A more nuanced discourse? Respectfully ask posters stop using this language? I certainly take exception to someone implying that my comments are representative of whats wrong with the discussion on these forums.

I wasn't looking for an argument and I clarified that yes, the X5 M is an M car because
Its built by M. I wasn't trying to dispute that at all but unfortunately ended up doing so. Although the fact that they are built in SC next to the regular X5 and X6 is worth noting IMO.

Why don't you stop on over in the M4 forums and see how they criticize any car magazine that dares find fault with their car. Car and driver loves the new M4? great! new review that isnt as positive? its a rag anyway! Or maybe the thread where its expensive watches pictured in your M car. So I do apologize for lowering the standards of car discussion around here by saying that the X5M isn't representative of what M stands for in my opinion. M cars aren't just about taking a vehicle and making it special. I think thats dumbing it down. There was always driver involvement. That is severely lacking with those SUVs. Is that because they are SUVs? Not sure. They are fast and handle OK but the driving experience lacks that involvement which makes Ms so special. Now maybe I would feel the same way if I drove a new M5 too and maybe the new M2 will have this issue as well. So hopefully these comments are nuanced enough to be deemed worthy of bimmerpost forums.

[Ramos]

I'm confused 😳 shouldn't the M40 engine replace the M35 engines? Shouldn't this be the next gen engine that powers the M240i and M440i?

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by WWM3

A more nuanced discourse? Respectfully ask posters stop using this language? I certainly take exception to someone implying that my comments are representative of whats wrong with the discussion on these forums.

I wasn't looking for an argument and I clarified that yes, the X5 M is an M car because
Its built by M. I wasn't trying to dispute that at all but unfortunately ended up doing so. Although the fact that they are built in SC next to the regular X5 and X6 is worth noting IMO.

Why don't you stop on over in the M4 forums and see how they criticize any car magazine that dares find fault with their car. Car and driver loves the new M4? great! new review that isnt as positive? its a rag anyway! Or maybe the thread where its expensive watches pictured in your M car. So I do apologize for lowering the standards of car discussion around here by saying that the X5M isn't representative of what M stands for in my opinion. M cars aren't just about taking a vehicle and making it special. I think thats dumbing it down. There was always driver involvement. That is severely lacking with those SUVs. Is that because they are SUVs? Not sure. They are fast and handle OK but the driving experience lacks that involvement which makes Ms so special. Now maybe I would feel the same way if I drove a new M5 too and maybe the new M2 will have this issue as well. So hopefully these comments are nuanced enough to be deemed worthy of bimmerpost forums.

Sorry. I didn't mean it that way at all. I'll just cut my losses here and say I'm really sorry for being such a prick.

[eldo33]

Originally Posted by YMB_M3_j2

looks the same as my Msport X4 i have now except for dual exhaust. Hopefully it doesnt cost a lot more becuase for a lot more money i would expect it to look different as well

now we know why the X4 only has exhaust on one side. of course it's going to be offset another $5K+ for this version.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Sorry. I didn't mean it that way at all. I'll just cut my losses here and say I'm really sorry for being such a prick.

It's ok. PM sent.

[135]

Originally Posted by Jason

The upcoming X4 M40i has now been spotted without camouflage. While not a full blown M model, this X4 has been tweaked by BMW M

But, the X4 M40i is particularly important because our upcoming models info shows that it will be powered by a new reworked N55 3.0L turbo six engine (N55B30T0) producing around 370-380 PS (365-375 HP), which will also power the BMW M2 when it arrives in early 2016.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

This is the test. It is very probably that the next X3 and X4 will receive full M models, as of now it is of unknown quantity.

The M Performance is laying the groundwork for the future. An actual X4 M was considered but because of the F26 life cycle it will be replaced by the G02 in 2018 which gives the first X4 just over 4 years on the market.
It was not deemed economically viable so the M Performance is the stop-gap and to test the potential and demand for a further performance model.

@Jason/@SCOTT26, I'm genuinely confused.

If the X4 M40i isn't a full blown M model, and the M2 is, why do they share the N55B30T0?

If the X4 M40i is a stop-gap until the X4M arrives (most likely given the X5M and X6M exist) then does that mean the upcoming M2 with the N55B30T0 is also a stop-gap, especially since the Production lifecycle for the X4 M40i and M2 are essentially the same?

Does that mean that the next (G-series) M2 in four to five years will be a full-blown M model with a bespoke S-series engine (either S55 or S58)?

And with the B58 succeeding the N55, and the B58 being linked to the 140i/240i/340i/440i, shouldn't the X4 M40i also use the B58? I though the N55 was linked to the current M135/235i/335i/435i models.

Interested to know your thoughts.