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      05-07-2012, 05:44 AM   #1
pamarin
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Smile Pirelli P7 Run flats - Realistic winter operating temperatures and performance

I own a 2011 X3 2.0D fitted with Pirelli P7 Cinturato 225/60R17 99V Run Flat Tyres which I understand are considered 'summer tyres'.

Now normally this is no problem for me as I live in Brisbane, which is in the sub-tropics, and the lowest ever recorded temperature is +3oC (+37oF).

However I'm taking our X3 from on a holiday trip from Brisbane to Canberra for a week in the near future where the current temperature range is from overnight lows of -3oC (+27oF) and daytime highs of +15oC (+59oF). I have a short 2 day side trip planned up to the Australian Alpine region where current temperature range is from overnight lows of -5oC (+23oF) and daytime highs of +6oC (+43oF).

I'm getting conflicting advice about the suitability of the P7 summer tyres. My BMW owners hand book say that they are not recommended for operation on 'winter roads or temperatures below +7oC (+45oF)'. I can't find any specifics on the Pirelli site about operating temperature ranges but I've read some US and Canada blog sites saying that at below +4oC (+40oF) grip starts to drop off, while a UK site suggested that at +3oC (+37oF) winter tyre performance seemed superior to an equivalent summer tyre. Other sites suggest that it is not until you get to -14oC (+7oF) that you lose all grip capacity as the summer tyres have by this point gone rock hard.

The official snow season is still 4 weeks away so there may not even be any snow on the roads yet.

I'll be talking to my local BMW dealer this week but I'm keen to hear any comments from Bimmerfesters that might help me decide if one week at sometimes near zero temperatures means I should get winter tyres.

If anyone can direct me to any sites that have specific information on realistic operating temperature ranges for the P7 that would be appreciated.

Also as a post script does anyone know if the standard engine coolant and wiper fluid is already sufficient for sub zero temperature operations.
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      05-07-2012, 06:25 AM   #2
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The spec of the standard Pirelli P7s we got are considered All Seasons... So they are "useable" down to -7C. I have read however that they are also sold in the summer variety.

I have been caught in a snow storm once in my RWD 325i with 18" summer's and managed to get home fine with careful driving.

As for the washer fluid, you can get a jug of fluid that is good for -40c (they're blue tinged)
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      05-07-2012, 12:47 PM   #3
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I've come through a northern UK (55N) winter on the non-runflat 17" P7s without any problem.
But, with a few exceptions, that seems to be the way here; one set of tyres year round.
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      05-09-2012, 06:35 AM   #4
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Well I spoke to my Brisbane BMW service centre and they saidf to ignore the 7C lower limit (despite it being in the owners manual). The rep said that thats just in europe and that in Australia NZ these tyres are rated for much lower temps.

So Im not sure if the actual tyres are different or our standards are different. Either way I'll drive on them to Canberra
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      05-09-2012, 08:04 AM   #5
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I've used similar tyres down to -15C with no concerns aside from needing to drive with care.
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      05-09-2012, 10:14 AM   #6
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You should be fine Pamarin, I too have the Pirelli P7s but just in a different size (245/50R18).

I got to try my X3 in winter driving for the first time earlier this year and was pleasantly surprised at how well it handled. We had a snow storm back in February where we had 4-6 inches where I live and 2-3 feet in some other areas. I drove fine in -5oC (+23oF) temps using the all-seasons and even purposely searched for hills to drive up because I had a week off when it snowed, not once did I have any trouble. I think your largest concern might be ground clearance because the X3 only has around 2 feet of clearance and no way to raise it like some other SUVs out there.

PS: The most common SUV where I live are Range Rovers, while I'm not saying the X3 is better in poor weather/terrain than RRs I can say that I didn't see a single RR on the road when it snowed. I think RRs are for a different demographic who value the brand's name even more so than BMW owners, I'm sure Evoque owners will be the same.
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      05-09-2012, 11:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pamarin View Post
Well I spoke to my Brisbane BMW service centre and they saidf to ignore the 7C lower limit (despite it being in the owners manual). The rep said that thats just in europe and that in Australia NZ these tyres are rated for much lower temps.

So Im not sure if the actual tyres are different or our standards are different. Either way I'll drive on them to Canberra
What tyres are actually fitted, P7 Summer, or P7 All-season?

One is suitable for below 7C, the other is not.

P7 Summer



P7 All-Season



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      05-09-2012, 05:10 PM   #8
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Looking at the pics I have summer. The 7C thing is surely marketing BS to sell winter tyres.
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      05-10-2012, 03:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clivem2 View Post
Looking at the pics I have summer. The 7C thing is surely marketing BS to sell winter tyres.
No, not at all, tyre technology is serious stuff. An All-Season is still a bit of a compromise, a "tool of some trades, master of none". A tyre like the summer P7 is a high performance summer tyre, just that. No way will that work well at low temperatures, fact. That's why a cold weather 'winter' tyre comes into its own below 7C and not just for snow.

We have all kinds of vehicles in the family including AWD, like my son's X3 3.0sd. He runs 19" summer tyres and his X3 is pretty hairy come winter time. Whereas my E91, on winter tyres can cope with anything, including ice, snow to about 8" deep. My car is even better than the 4-Motion on All-Season tyres my sister runs. I've far more reserve for bad weather and snow driving, braking in particular.

What is often completely forgotten, AWD has no advantage in cold weather (particularly snow) over a 2WD for stability, car control or braking. Just a bit more traction.

The tyre difference, summer rubber goes hard, the winter tyre is something like the feel of a decent eraser, even at sub zero temperatures. Just put the two types together at freezing temperatures and you clearly feel the diffference. The summer is hard and slippy, the winter grippy. Hard rubber loses grip as it can't form around the road surface finish.

As I have two wheel sets, (summer and winter sets) I've had the chance to directly compare tyre performance the same day, on the same ice and snow section of road. Simply chalk and cheese to drive. If I had AWD, I'd still be changing to winter tyres.

This is a section from my winter tyre, a Vredestein Wintrac Extreme. Besides the obvious tread and sipe design, the compound is formulated to be soft and grippy at cold temperatures.



You can see how the P7 All-season is the compromise between a summer and decent winter tyre. Saves changing tyres for winter, unless you are in a area with serious snow, where users will change to winter tyres as a matter of course. Or just expect to get by, rather than have more reserve for the extremes with a true winter tyre fitted.

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Last edited by HighlandPete; 05-10-2012 at 04:04 AM..
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      05-10-2012, 04:18 AM   #10
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@ Highland Pete - Big thanks for pics and info

I have just got my X3 and was offered winter tyres and agreed to think about them. Dealer was not pushy and is happy to hold the price till october.

I have read up and was 75% sure it was a good idea but now I understand I have the P7 Summer RFTs Im going to go for winter ones. It cost no more (over time) other then the rims which also provide extended life as well. The braking performance alone means its almost a no brainer!

Got the BMW tyre insurance too - and this covers both sets so again thats sorted.
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      05-10-2012, 04:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
No, not at all, tyre technology is serious stuff. An All-Season is still a bit of a compromise, a "tool of some trades, master of none". A tyre like the summer P7 is a high performance summer tyre, just that. No way will that work well at low temperatures, fact. That's why a cold weather 'winter' tyre comes into its own below 7C and not just for snow.

We have all kinds of vehicles in the family including AWD, like my son's X3 3.0sd. He runs 19" summer tyres and his X3 is pretty hairy come winter time. Whereas my E91, on winter tyres can cope with anything, including ice, snow to about 8" deep. My car is even better than the 4-Motion on All-Season tyres my sister runs. I've far more reserve for bad weather and snow driving, braking in particular.
For sure winter tyres are lot better in continuous cold weather, there's no argument about that. The problem where I live (Cheshire, England) is that the temps are all over the place. Last winter it rarely froze whereas the previous 2 winters had prolonged very cold spells.

Traction is my main concern as most roads I drive on are well treated, snow and ice-free, that's once I make it the first 100 yards from our untreated road! Our nights typically dip to 2C in the winter the daytime temp is often more than 7C, this is when I'm most likely to be driving. In the Scottish Highlands your situation will be very different.

Having used summer tyres in these conditions for the last 30 years I struggle to accept the marketing ads that tell me I need winter tyres given the driving I do and my location - it's just not that black and white.

For the 2 bad and unexpected winters I would have benefited greatly from winter tyres as my 335i was beached in the drive for weeks. Though with the snow we had I suspect ground clearance would still have been an issue!
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      05-10-2012, 05:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plymjack View Post
@ Highland Pete - Big thanks for pics and info

I have just got my X3 and was offered winter tyres and agreed to think about them. Dealer was not pushy and is happy to hold the price till october.

I have read up and was 75% sure it was a good idea but now I understand I have the P7 Summer RFTs Im going to go for winter ones. It cost no more (over time) other then the rims which also provide extended life as well. The braking performance alone means its almost a no brainer!

Got the BMW tyre insurance too - and this covers both sets so again thats sorted.
Sounds like you have it sorted, I'm sure you won't regret it, even without snow.

I've driven summer RFTs in colder temperatures and I hate the feel from the tyre, grip levels deteriorate and become unpredictable and the road feel/feedback is poor.

I had one experience on my winter tyres, when the car in front went out of control on black ice. I had to brake hard mid bend, something I'd never plan to do, as he spun around in the road and nearly turned over. I know for sure my E91 would have gone out of control on summer tyres, but the winter tyres gripped well, "bit of twitching" but I had control. They paid for themselves that morning, I'd have been 'ditched' among some trees, or worse.

I came home a couple of hours later and there was sand all over the road, tracks down over the bank. Some other poor soul had lost control and ended up in the trees, the road had just been cleared. I'd wager that guy never even needed to brake, but just lost it, confirmed how close I was to a possible write off.

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      05-10-2012, 05:11 AM   #13
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The BBC weather pages give the average monthly max temps and for Plymouth Nov-March is 8-11 deg C and the min average is 4-7 deg C.
The performance of "Summer tyres" will be dropping off at these temps. Its not black & white its a cross over period. You dont "need" them but they wil be better - safer - and actually if you keep the car (and tyres) for 3-4 years and do say 15000 miles a year then the cost will only be the rims.

If you watch F1 these days the only variable factor is tyres!
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      05-10-2012, 05:49 AM   #14
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For myself doing 10,000 miles per year and working from home I can decide not to drive if the weather is lousy - then my decision is easy, summer tyres are fine. Also most of my driving is in urban areas where the temps are 2 to 3 degrees higher than the records sourced from Manchester airport show.

We have to take our own decisions based on local driving conditions and personal circumstances which dictate when and where we drive. With the local conditions I have here I don't find a huge difference in feel from the tyres in the winter. Mind you we had snow in June a few years back!
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      05-10-2012, 06:06 AM   #15
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We really get back to why the All-Season is the compromise. But here in Europe we don't seem to like ALL-Season tyres, we want top summer performance, so most OEM fitment is the summer tyre. In the UK we have got away with all year use of summer tyres for many years, but with more erratic winter weather (and summer), we can so easily get caught out.

Even up here in the Highlands we had several years of very mild winters, so many forgot the old winters, and more cars have the big summer wheel options. But get a normal, or colder winter and we have many more 'ditch' incidents, including AWD and the 'invincible' SUV.

My observation, it is not really the snow that catches most folks, (OK it brings the nation to a halt), but black ice. Summer tyres give so little safety, on black ice, too late if you hit a hidden ice pocket, which puts you off the road.

Personally I like a predictable drive, summer tyres are very temperature sensitive as they cool down, or get chilled by rain, so as an enthusiast driver they are really too variable in winter conditions anyway.

I illustrate using winter tyres on my car as it is like driving on a decent summer tyre, warmed up, and running in 20C ambient temperture. It is like that at virtually any winter temperature, so total predictability, even from cold and a similar road feel, every mile.

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      05-10-2012, 07:14 AM   #16
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In Finland we have sometimes below zero (celsius) temperatures even in summertime, during night, and we get along with our summer tyres just fine.

Summer tyres work good enough on pale asphalt even if it is minus 10 celsius.

The problems start when you have ice, frost or snow on the surface. Then traction is quite close to zero.

We use two sets of tyres here, summer and winter. No one uses all seasons (because we know they are crap all season...).

Most of us has studded winter tyres but for the mild coastal winter, many people now use studless witner tyres. As they do not have metal studs and they offer good traction on ice, snow and asphalt, they can be used early in the fall and long spring.

I can highly recommend e.g. Nokian Tyres winter tyres without studs for you:

http://www.nokiantyres.com/products


To get idea why we use winter tyres:


Last edited by Rodion; 05-10-2012 at 07:19 AM.. Reason: video
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      05-10-2012, 07:38 AM   #17
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Thanks everyone for your comments. I went and looked at my tyres and they are definitly Not All Season M+S or Winter tyres. The tred pattern is identicle to the tred pattern shown on the summer tyres posted by Highland Pete.

Anyway it looks like I'll just take it easy for those 2 days in the Alpine regions, not follow too close and go slow.
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      05-10-2012, 01:39 PM   #18
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Since we're already on the topic, what type of tires would you guys recommend for an area that has rain for about 7 months out of the year and temperatures around 50-60 Fahrenheit? I plan on purchasing dedicated winter tires once my all-seasons are worn then buy a larger set of wheels and some other type of tire to use for the rest of the year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
What is often completely forgotten, AWD has no advantage in cold weather (particularly snow) over a 2WD for stability, car control or braking. Just a bit more traction.
You make a very good point in that tire type is much more important in cold weather than simply 2WD vs AWD but sometimes that extra bit of traction can make a big difference. The X3 is my first awd car and prior to that I had a RWD Mercedes C300 that was pretty much useless in the snow, if I drove it outside I couldn't drive it back up the hill to my house. Shortly after purchasing my X3 my parents bought a 4matic Mercedes C300 and it actually did quite well in the snow. Both MBs had stock all-seasons so I was really surprised how much better their AWD C300 did than my old RWD one.
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      05-11-2012, 02:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyu View Post
Since we're already on the topic, what type of tires would you guys recommend for an area that has rain for about 7 months out of the year and temperatures around 50-60 Fahrenheit? I plan on purchasing dedicated winter tires once my all-seasons are worn then buy a larger set of wheels and some other type of tire to use for the rest of the year.
As said on the previous post, I recommend Nokian tyres:

http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre?id=1...kian+WR+G2+SUV

That particular model is perfect for wet asphalt and occasional snow/slush, and even ice. It is designed to more Central European winter rather than into harsh northern winters.
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      05-11-2012, 02:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
As said on the previous post, I recommend Nokian tyres:

http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre?id=1...kian+WR+G2+SUV

That particular model is perfect for wet asphalt and occasional snow/slush, and even ice. It is designed to more Central European winter rather than into harsh northern winters.
+1

Top of my list. Nokian know the cold weather business, guys around here use them and on SUVs.

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      05-11-2012, 02:51 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyu View Post
You make a very good point in that tire type is much more important in cold weather than simply 2WD vs AWD but sometimes that extra bit of traction can make a big difference. The X3 is my first awd car and prior to that I had a RWD Mercedes C300 that was pretty much useless in the snow, if I drove it outside I couldn't drive it back up the hill to my house. Shortly after purchasing my X3 my parents bought a 4matic Mercedes C300 and it actually did quite well in the snow. Both MBs had stock all-seasons so I was really surprised how much better their AWD C300 did than my old RWD one.
If we are talking AWD on All-Season vs. 2WD on Winters (running snow), you will find the 2WD will have more traction, stability and better braking.

AWD and winter tyres, obviously the best of all.

Plenty of tests out there (with videos) to show the difference.

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      05-11-2012, 07:51 AM   #22
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I thought I'd chime in since I've used the Nokian WR G2 SUV. They are definitely a great all season tire and it is actually winter rated which is a plus. They do get a bit noisy as they get more miles on them so keep that in mind. If you're in a place with real winter conditions however consider Blizzaks I've used those as well on the same vehicle as the Nokians and the Blizzaks have much better grip but they are a dedicated winter tire so you won't be able to run them throughout the year as you would the Nokians.
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