[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

So it's pick your poison. You're either shelling out money for a complicated suspension system that makes RFT livable or you're shelling out money for better tires. Personally, I'd rather have the less mechanically complex solution that achieves the same result.

I've driven 30,000-35,000 miles this past year. Wear and tear from mileage and replacement costs are a factor in my purchasing decision.

This is inaccurate. DHP is much different than a softer sidewall non-rft.

DHP is worth the money. Search this forum, this comes up every few months.

[Greg2010]

Day and night difference with DHP. Compare the two, and you'll feel the difference instantly (almost real time) lol!

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by cSurf

This is inaccurate. DHP is much different than a softer sidewall non-rft.

DHP is worth the money. Search this forum, this comes up every few months.

Have you driven enough miles to replace your DHP dampers yet? If you have and you're telling me they are worth the money, then you're somewhat credible.

Let me ask you. Which is going to handle better and ride more comfortably?

OEM RFTs + DHP

or

Michelin PSS + non-DHP suspension

If you think a set of really nice coilovers is going to overcome a mechanical traction limitation (tires), you're way off base. That's like showing up to a track in the summer with all season tires and Ohlin coilovers and think you're going to put down better lap times than someone with a stock Sport suspension and Pilot Cup extreme summer tires.

The base suspension is already really soft. If you're still complaining of a crashy ride, then it's your tires + wheel diameter because I have zero issues with that on my static Sport Suspension 335i.

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Do you have technical literature that supports this?

How exactly do you define "real time"? I always get a chuckle when people use this term because it sounds cool but most people can't properly define it. Either BMW is completely underrating their product, or your over-marketing it.


To quote the BMWUSA site: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...g_control.html



From an engineering perspective, it sounds like this system allows the user to adjust - "makes it possible to..." - instead of automatically. Conceptually, this system mechanically alters the valving of the shock to provide a preset dampening.

This system is NOT to be confused with a system such as GM's Magnetic Ride Control which actually makes up to 1000 adjustments per second in "real time". This is the system that can make adjustments mid-bump. It is capable of this because it achieves dampening changes very differently. It actually alters the viscosity of the fluid almost instantaneously.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Have you driven enough miles to replace your DHP dampers yet? If you have and you're telling me they are worth the money, then you're somewhat credible.

Let me ask you. Which is going to handle better and ride more comfortably?

OEM RFTs + DHP

or

Michelin PSS + non-DHP suspension

If you think a set of really nice coilovers is going to overcome a mechanical traction limitation (tires), you're way off base. That's like showing up to a track in the summer with all season tires and Ohlin coilovers and think you're going to put down better lap times than someone with a stock Sport suspension and Pilot Cup extreme summer tires.

The base suspension is already really soft. If you're still complaining of a crashy ride, then it's your tires + wheel diameter because I have zero issues with that on my static Sport Suspension 335i.

Your conflating a handful of different concepts here.

The enhanced mechanical grip provided by superior set of tires is limited by the suspension's ability to keep that tire in contact with the road. Magnetorheological dampers will do a better job of that than base suspension. You're free to argue that, but the vast majority of literature/commentary on the topic will disagree with you.

As for replacement cost- sure, in the unlikely scenario that the OP has a magnetorheological strut fail, it will cost more to repair than were it the base shock/spring.... but presumably the OP is concerned with performance (and the cost/benefit of 'checking the box') and not marginal cost of replacement if/when there's a failure. If he were (and OP, feel free to chime in), I suspect he'd be looking a simpler, more reliable automobile all-together.

Here's the German site on EDC (for the X3). EDC is DHP in NA.

Electronic Damper Control.
Electronic Damper Control (EDC) automatically or manually adjusts each damper to suit the driving conditions meaning you enjoy outstanding comfort along with the best in BMW on-road safety. EDC reduces variations in wheel load, ensures tyres have excellent traction and counteracts bodyshell movement regardless of the weight your automobile may be carrying or the state of the road's surface.

Sensors constantly monitor all factors influencing the vehicle's behaviour and occupants' comfort, in order to precisely adjust the damper control. In a fraction of a second, the signals are analysed by the EDC microprocessor and orders are sent to the actuators on the shock absorbers, which, with the help of magnetic valves, are variably adjusted to provide optimal suspension. Thanks to Electronic Damper Control, the tendency for the nose to dip when braking is practically eliminated. The influence of potholes and unevenness on the road surface is reduced to minimum.

In addition to increased driving comfort and improved roll characteristics on the tyres, EDC also contributes to vehicle stability and safety. By reducing the nose's tendency to dip when braking and improving the tyre traction, EDC shortens the braking distance when braking heavily. The damper adjustment means that even when braking with ABS the vehicle chassis remains upright on the road and all four wheels have the largest possible contact to the surface.

The Driving Experience Control switch with ECO PRO lets the driver choose between various programs (like COMFORT, NORMAL, SPORT or SPORT+) and adjust the suspension to suit his individual needs.

[clivem2]

As I posted earlier I had non-DHP and DHP X3s. DHP is a no brainer for me. If you are worried about repair costs then don't get a BMW.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Your conflating a handful of different concepts here.

The enhanced mechanical grip provided by superior set of tires is limited by the suspension's ability to keep that tire in contact with the road. Magnetorheological dampers will do a better job of that than base suspension. You're free to argue that, but the vast majority of literature/commentary on the topic will disagree with you.

As for replacement cost- sure, in the unlikely scenario that the OP has a magnetorheological strut fail, it will cost more to repair than were it the base shock/spring.... but presumably the OP is concerned with performance (and the cost/benefit of 'checking the box') and not marginal cost of replacement if/when there's a failure. If he were (and OP, feel free to chime in), I suspect he'd be looking a simpler, more reliable automobile all-together.

Here's the German site on EDC (for the X3). EDC is DHP in NA.

Electronic Damper Control.
Electronic Damper Control (EDC) automatically or manually adjusts each damper to suit the driving conditions meaning you enjoy outstanding comfort along with the best in BMW on-road safety. EDC reduces variations in wheel load, ensures tyres have excellent traction and counteracts bodyshell movement regardless of the weight your automobile may be carrying or the state of the road's surface.

Sensors constantly monitor all factors influencing the vehicle's behaviour and occupants' comfort, in order to precisely adjust the damper control. In a fraction of a second, the signals are analysed by the EDC microprocessor and orders are sent to the actuators on the shock absorbers, which, with the help of magnetic valves, are variably adjusted to provide optimal suspension. Thanks to Electronic Damper Control, the tendency for the nose to dip when braking is practically eliminated. The influence of potholes and unevenness on the road surface is reduced to minimum.

In addition to increased driving comfort and improved roll characteristics on the tyres, EDC also contributes to vehicle stability and safety. By reducing the nose's tendency to dip when braking and improving the tyre traction, EDC shortens the braking distance when braking heavily. The damper adjustment means that even when braking with ABS the vehicle chassis remains upright on the road and all four wheels have the largest possible contact to the surface.

The Driving Experience Control switch with ECO PRO lets the driver choose between various programs (like COMFORT, NORMAL, SPORT or SPORT+) and adjust the suspension to suit his individual needs.

First, the EDC/DHP dampers are not the same "magnetorheological shocks" as GM's Magnetic Ride Control found in the Corvette, new Camaro, Cadillac V, etc. Let's not try to up-sell this the way the guys on the F30 forums do about xDrive when in fact it's a inferior system compared to the Quattro found on the Audi S4.

Is anyone going to really argue that a change of tires from OEM RFT to Michelin PSS yields a smaller performance increase than non-DHP to DHP? That's like me buying a high end AR-15 but running cheap steel cased Russian ammo through it and wondering why it's not as accurate as I'd like it to be.

Likewise, are you going to make the argument "You don't need winter tires because DHP does [insert whatever feature you think DHP does] and will make sure your all season tires will maintain traction on snow/ice"? And we always see guys that say, "Well, [something] has worked for me for 30+ years..." but they almost never mention that they have a < 5 mile commute to work everyday". But they are trying to convince those who have a 40 mile commute at highway speeds that because they can "get by" with their shitty setup, it should work for others.

Originally Posted by clivem2

As I posted earlier I had non-DHP and DHP X3s. DHP is a no brainer for me. If you are worried about repair costs then don't get a BMW.

You have continued to avoid telling us how many miles you drive per year. It sounds like you haven't driven enough to wear out these components. If that's the case, then fine.

If you're an informed consumer, you want to be able to accurately predict what your costs will be regardless of whether they are high or low.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

You have continued to avoid telling us how many miles you drive per year. It sounds like you haven't driven enough to wear out these components. If that's the case, that's fine.

If you're an informed consumer, you want to be able to accurately predict what your costs will be regardless of whether they are high or low.

Kind of aggressive.

I drive 30k miles per year in the UK. My previous X3 30D did 95k miles on real MSport suspension (ie not std suspension as in the US). My 35D has only 20k on the clock so far. In 35 years of driving I've only ever had to replace one pair of dampers, this was due to a premature failure not wear.

I say again, if parts cost are an issue don't get a BMW. Costs will be high with a BMW, especially now they are ever so complex. I'd be more concerned long-term about the electronics and the amount of software glitches you get as the car ages due to ECUs dying. This will likely be far more expensive than any fancy dampers.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by clivem2

Kind of aggressive.

I drive 30k miles per year in the UK. My previous X3 30D did 95k miles on real MSport suspension (ie not std suspension as in the US). My 35D has only 20k on the clock so far. In 35 years of driving I've only ever had to replace one pair of dampers, this was due to a premature failure not wear.

I say again, if parts cost are an issue don't get a BMW. Costs will be high with a BMW, especially now they are ever so complex. I'd be more concerned long-term about the electronics and the amount of software glitches you get as the car ages due to ECUs dying. This will likely be far more expensive than any fancy dampers.

But on your X3, you're averaging 10-20k/year? ~2014MY and 20k miles already. So it doesn't see that "much" usage.

As for the electrical failures, yes they seem to be more a function of time than mileage. This is why I was fine purchasing a BMW. If I average 30-35k miles per year on my 335i (for a max of 5-8 years), I'd likely pay more for wear and tear items than part failure due to age.

If you have time on your hands: http://cartechnology.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=61

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

But on your X3, you're averaging 10-20k/year? ~2014MY and 20k miles already. So it doesn't see that "much" usage.

As for the electrical failures, yes they seem to be more a function of time than mileage. This is why I was fine purchasing a BMW. If I average 30-35k miles per year on my 335i (for a max of 5-8 years), I'd likely pay more for wear and tear items than part failure due to age.

If you have time on your hands: http://cartechnology.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?fid=61

My 35D is 13 months old. Yes the 20k miles is unusually low for my driving pattern. My 30D was 3 years old with 95k so you can see my typical average.

With the potential max mileage (280k!!!) and age you're looking I'd not take on a complex and relatively delicate vehicle such as a BMW. At that mileage I'd be more worried about the engine and transmission than dampers.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

First, the EDC/DHP dampers are not the same "magnetorheological shocks" as GM's Magnetic Ride Control found in the Corvette, new Camaro, Cadillac V, etc. Let's not try to up-sell this the way the guys on the F30 forums do about xDrive when in fact it's a inferior system compared to the Quattro found on the Audi S4.

Is anyone going to really argue that a change of tires from OEM RFT to Michelin PSS yields a smaller performance increase than non-DHP to DHP? That's like me buying a high end AR-15 but running cheap steel cased Russian ammo through it and wondering why it's not as accurate as I'd like it to be.

Likewise, are you going to make the argument "You don't need winter tires because DHP does [insert whatever feature you think DHP does] and will make sure your all season tires will maintain traction on snow/ice"? And we always see guys that say, "Well, [something] has worked for me for 30+ years..." but they almost never mention that they have a < 5 mile commute to work everyday". But they are trying to convince those who have a 40 mile commute at highway speeds that because they can "get by" with their shitty setup, it should work for others.

You have continued to avoid telling us how many miles you drive per year. It sounds like you haven't driven enough to wear out these components. If that's the case, then fine.

If you're an informed consumer, you want to be able to accurately predict what your costs will be regardless of whether they are high or low.

Lots of rambling anecdotes here.

I'm not arguing that swapping out RFT LS2s for non-run flat PSSs wouldn't be a wise choice... but that's not what the OP is asking.

Moreover, there's nothing that precludes him/her from doing both (optioning for a superior suspensions AND swapping out tires).

I'm not entirely sure where your getting your information, but all magnetorheological systems work similarly. Are there superior systems, sure, but the OP isn't buying a Z06, he's buying an X3, so the choice is DHP or no DHP.

In my experience, DHP is revelatory for the X3. It goes from a wobbly, under-sprung SUV (that suffers squat, dive and routinely is surprised/unable to cope with uneven pavement) to something much more composed; simultaneously more comfortable and more confidence inspiring (i.e. higher performing). For the handful of % it increases the asking price, it's worth a hard look.

And just because you're fun, I would argue that the that the S4s AWD system is inferior to the 340i...because they're both meant to be performance cars. Torsen and its mechanical diffs are excellent in inclimate weather... but it's front biased and heavy has hell (which is why the S4 understeers like a Hyundai Genesis).

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by clivem2

My 35D is 13 months old. Yes the 20k miles is unusually low for my driving pattern. My 30D was 3 years old with 95k so you can see my typical average.

With the potential max mileage (280k!!!) and age you're looking I'd not take on a complex and relatively delicate vehicle such as a BMW. At that mileage I'd be more worried about the engine and transmission than dampers.

I'm not so worried about the engine. I'd be more worried about the transmission. The replacement cost of the transmission is about ~$6000 but it's interesting that it's about the same replacement cost of the transmission on my Subaru Legacy GT.

Originally Posted by cSurf

Lots of rambling anecdotes here.

I'm not arguing that swapping out RFT LS2s for non-run flat PSSs wouldn't be a wise choice... but that's not what the OP is asking.

Moreover, there's nothing that precludes him/her from doing both (optioning for a superior suspensions AND swapping out tires).

I'm not entirely sure where your getting your information, but all magnetorheological systems work similarly. Are there superior systems, sure, but the OP isn't buying a Z06, he's buying an X3, so the choice is DHP or no DHP.

In my experience, DHP is revelatory for the X3. It goes from a wobbly, under-sprung SUV (that suffers squat, dive and routinely is surprised/unable to cope with uneven pavement) to something much more composed; simultaneously more comfortable and more confidence inspiring (i.e. higher performing). For the handful of % it increases the asking price, it's worth a hard look.

And just because you're fun, I would argue that the that the S4s AWD system is inferior to the 340i...because they're both meant to be performance cars. Torsen and its mechanical diffs are excellent in inclimate weather... but it's front biased and heavy has hell (which is why the S4 understeers like a Hyundai Genesis).

All magnetorheological dampers don't work similarly. That's like saying bolt action rifles and semi automatic rifles work similarly. They don't. The question is how fast can you actuate the valves to adjust to changes.

In fact, I'm not even sure if you can define the EDC/DHP as a magnetorheological damper since the definition generally relates to the properties of the fluid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_damper

When you said, "It goes from a wobbly, under-sprung SUV (that suffers squat, dive and routinely is surprised/unable to cope with uneven pavement)"... Nothing about DHP changes the spring rate in the United States. That's why I've always maintained that it's a half baked solution for a vehicle that suffers from squat, dive, roll, etc. Sure, it may resist the motion of the vehicle initially, but without a change in spring rate the car will still dive, squat, or roll.

If you truly want to address these issues, you're looking for something like the KW V2 coilover system (which is more expensive than DHP): http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-20...xdrive35i.aspx

As for the Audi S4, let's clarify. You can option the S4 with it's active torque vectoring differential - Sport Diff. Most reviews have said that this torque vectoring diff effectively eliminates much of the understeer. This is significantly different from the brake actuated torque vectoring system found in most BMWs. The F30 xDrive has open front and rear differentials. And no one is going to claim that there isn't tremendous understeer in a F30 xDrive vehicle.

Anecdotally, a friend had an xDrive 328i whose servo motor failed in the xDrive transfer case. It effectively became a heavier RWD vehicle.

For a street driven car, you really can't beat a simple mechanical AWD system: Torsen center diff + clutch based/Torsen based rear differential. It's simple. It's tried and true.

Yes, there are far superior AWD systems such as those found in the Mitsubishi Evo and Nissan GTR, but there's a tremendous increase in cost.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I'm not so worried about the engine. I'd be more worried about the transmission. The replacement cost of the transmission is about ~$6000 but it's interesting that it's about the same replacement cost of the transmission on my Subaru Legacy GT.

All magnetorheological dampers don't work similarly. That's like saying bolt action rifles and semi automatic rifles work similarly. They don't. The question is how fast can you actuate the valves to adjust to changes.

In fact, I'm not even sure if you can define the EDC/DHP as a magnetorheological damper since the definition generally relates to the properties of the fluid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_damper

When you said, "It goes from a wobbly, under-sprung SUV (that suffers squat, dive and routinely is surprised/unable to cope with uneven pavement)"... Nothing about DHP changes the spring rate in the United States. That's why I've always maintained that it's a half baked solution for a vehicle that suffers from squat, dive, roll, etc. Sure, it may resist the motion of the vehicle initially, but without a change in spring rate the car will still dive, squat, or roll.

If you truly want to address these issues, you're looking for something like the KW V2 coilover system (which is more expensive than DHP): http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-20...xdrive35i.aspx

As for the Audi S4, let's clarify. You can option the S4 with it's active torque vectoring differential - Sport Diff. Most reviews have said that this torque vectoring diff effectively eliminates much of the understeer. This is significantly different from the brake actuated torque vectoring system found in most BMWs. The F30 xDrive has open front and rear differentials. And no one is going to claim that there isn't tremendous understeer in a F30 xDrive vehicle.

Anecdotally, a friend had an xDrive 328i whose servo motor failed in the xDrive transfer case. It effectively became a heavier RWD vehicle.

For a street driven car, you really can't beat a simple mechanical AWD system: Torsen center diff + clutch based/Torsen based rear differential. It's simple. It's tried and true.

Yes, there are far superior AWD systems such as those found in the Mitsubishi Evo and Nissan GTR, but there's a tremendous increase in cost.

We're not taking about rifles. We're talking about dampener technology on an relatively pricey, performance-oriented SUV (or SAV, for the marketing folks).

By your logic - simpler is better - the OP should look for a car with leaf springs. Surely leaf springs are more reliable and easy to repair than shocks/struts/springs.

On dampener technology; dampeners are meant to resist and release energy created by spring compression. DHP/EDC does a much better job of both. Not just because fluid density and volume can be altered, but because there's hardware and software that communicate between axles and with other sub systems- helping make those fluid density/volume decisions based on a variety of parameters (eg. slam on the brakes, the dampeners firm and offer greater resist spring compression/brake dive). Sure, it's a more complex system... but denying that it's superior tech (for what is a nominal increase in upfront cost) is spurious.

[exon]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Do you have technical literature that supports this?

How exactly do you define "real time"? I always get a chuckle when people use this term because it sounds cool but most people can't properly define it. Either BMW is completely underrating their product, or your over-marketing it.


To quote the BMWUSA site: http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...g_control.html



From an engineering perspective, it sounds like this system allows the user to adjust - "makes it possible to..." - instead of automatically. Conceptually, this system mechanically alters the valving of the shock to provide a preset dampening.

This system is NOT to be confused with a system such as GM's Magnetic Ride Control which actually makes up to 1000 adjustments per second in "real time". This is the system that can make adjustments mid-bump. It is capable of this because it achieves dampening changes very differently. It actually alters the viscosity of the fluid almost instantaneously.

see it here:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ive_drive.html

But regardless of definitionof "real time" (you can say 1000hz, someone can say 10khz. In computer world it might be Mhz range....), say if a system can only adjust damping 10 times per second (so that's more like mid-corner adjustment instead of mid-bump), that still provides way better ride/handling mix than a fixed setup.

[bichoo]

Quite the interesting discussion here.
I have no experience using DHP since I didn't get it on my first X3 and not available on my 2016 X3 in Canada. However, I do have the MSport suspension now. I can say this:

1) Pre-LCI, 19" LS2 RFT tires: on standard suspension it is the root cause of the firm uncomfortable ride, unless the pavement is smooth. However, because of the low profile and RFT hard side wall, corning stability was excellent.
2) Pre-LCI, 19" Pilot Sport (non-RFT): Less firm, much more comfortable, however noticeable loss in cornering stability.
3) Pre-LCI, 18" Pilot Alpin (non-RFT): Too soft, and much more loss in handling and overall stability but was fine for the winter months.

4) LCI, 19" staggered Pirelli (RFT) on MSport suspension: Firm, but comfortable firm compared to LS2s, car is much more composed and smooth. Aside from the sport suspension, I heard that LCI improved both the standard and sport suspension. Pre-LCI MSport did offer DHP in Canada but LCI is now only offered with sport suspension and no DHP, perhaps there was a reason for this.
5) LCI, 20" 310M: I test drove this because I wanted the 20" wheels, however on MSport suspension, it was way too firm so opted to not get it. I have heard that with DHP, it is much better.

[exon]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Nothing about DHP changes the spring rate in the United States. That's why I've always maintained that it's a half baked solution for a vehicle that suffers from squat, dive, roll, etc. Sure, it may resist the motion of the vehicle initially, but without a change in spring rate the car will still dive, squat, or roll.

You can't go into a steady state without going through the transient state first. So arguably, transient state response is super important. And in many cases (lane changes, steering corrections) you steering centers back before the car reaches steady cornering lean.

Also think holistically (not BMW specific): with adjustable shocks, engineers can put in firmer springs and more sporty tires without ruining ride quality. That's a win-win in my book (probably in anyone's book).

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by cSurf

We're not taking about rifles. We're talking about dampener technology on an relatively pricey, performance-oriented SUV (or SAV, for the marketing folks).

By your logic - simpler is better - the OP should look for a car with leaf springs. Surely leaf springs are more reliable and easy to repair than shocks/struts/springs.

On dampener technology; dampeners are meant to resist and release energy created by spring compression. DHP/EDC does a much better job of both. Not just because fluid density and volume can be altered, but because there's hardware and software that communicate between axles and with other sub systems- helping make those fluid density/volume decisions based on a variety of parameters (eg. slam on the brakes, the dampeners firm and offer greater resist spring compression/brake dive). Sure, it's a more complex system... but denying that it's superior tech (for what is a nominal increase in upfront cost) is spurious.

Leaf springs ARE more reliable and easier to repair. That's why they're used pretty often in towing applications. Are they the best design suited for a performance car? No.

DHP/EDC does NOT alter fluid viscosity. Like we've discussed before, it is not equivalent to GM's Magnetic Ride Control. Not even close. Also, if the DHP damper replacement cost is 2-3x the cost of a traditional damper is the price increase "nominal"?

If DHP is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer a M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan. The consensus on the F30 forums is that the M Performance Suspension kit is the superior performance setup.

Originally Posted by exon

see it here:

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ive_drive.html

But regardless of definitionof "real time" (you can say 1000hz, someone can say 10khz. In computer world it might be Mhz range....), say if a system can only adjust damping 10 times per second (so that's more like mid-corner adjustment instead of mid-bump), that still provides way better ride/handling mix than a fixed setup.

Again, if DHP is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer a M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan. The consensus on the F30 forums is that the M Performance Suspension kit is the superior performance setup. This is largely due to the fact that the major deficiency on the stock Sport suspension is not enough spring. The issue wasn't dampening. Again, DHP cannot overcome the lack of spring rate.

This is a good find, however, Adaptive Drive is available on the 5 Series (and other higher end models). It is not available on the F25 X3 or F30 in the form of DHP.

Originally Posted by bichoo

Quite the interesting discussion here.
I have no experience using DHP since I didn't get it on my first X3 and not available on my 2016 X3 in Canada. However, I do have the MSport suspension now. I can say this:

1) Pre-LCI, 19" LS2 RFT tires: on standard suspension it is the root cause of the firm uncomfortable ride, unless the pavement is smooth. However, because of the low profile and RFT hard side wall, corning stability was excellent.
2) Pre-LCI, 19" Pilot Sport (non-RFT): Less firm, much more comfortable, however noticeable loss in cornering stability.
3) Pre-LCI, 18" Pilot Alpin (non-RFT): Too soft, and much more loss in handling and overall stability but was fine for the winter months.

4) LCI, 19" staggered Pirelli (RFT) on MSport suspension: Firm, but comfortable firm compared to LS2s, car is much more composed and smooth. Aside from the sport suspension, I heard that LCI improved both the standard and sport suspension. Pre-LCI MSport did offer DHP in Canada but LCI is now only offered with sport suspension and no DHP, perhaps there was a reason for this.
5) LCI, 20" 310M: I test drove this because I wanted the 20" wheels, however on MSport suspension, it was way too firm so opted to not get it. I have heard that with DHP, it is much better.

There's definitely a strong correlation among your experiences.

Generally, smaller diameter/greater sidewall height offers greater compliance over abrupt bumps in the roads such as potholes. The problem with potholes is that such a huge change is happening over such a small period of time that the suspension often times doesn't even fully compress before someone experiences wheel/tire damage. The only real good solution against pothole damage is sidewall height and non-RFT. DHP helps, but it is generally secondary. Using exon's terms... the transient state for potholes happens so quickly that the suspension is not really equipped to respond to the change.

With that being said, the increased "stiffness" of a RFT usually doesn't overcome the performance decrease from increased unsprung weight. If RFTs were so great, then why do the 2016 340i Track Package and the M3 come with non-RFT tires stock?



F30 forums suspension hierarchy: http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...nce+suspension

There's some debate on DHP vs. Sport suspension, but there's a general consensus that the M Performance Suspension kit is the superior suspension setup. If there's a static suspension setup that is the clear winner over a complex DHP system that can allegedly adjust in real time, then it simply doesn't convince me that DHP in it's current form is a worthwhile investment. You're introducing a lot of complexity and cost in a system that cannot, in its current implementation, outperform a well designed static suspension setup. Subpar tires have been the culprit of almost all of the grievances I have heard in terms of the static suspension feeling too "stiff" or "crashy".

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Leaf springs ARE more reliable and easier to repair. That's why they're used pretty often in towing applications. Are they the best design suited for a performance car? No.

DHP/EDC does NOT alter fluid viscosity. Like we've discussed before, it is not equivalent to GM's Magnetic Ride Control. Not even close. Also, if the DHP damper replacement cost is 2-3x the cost of a traditional damper is the price increase "nominal"?

If DHP is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer a M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan. The consensus on the F30 forums is that the M Performance Suspension kit is the superior performance setup.

Again, if DHP is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer a M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan. The consensus on the F30 forums is that the M Performance Suspension kit is the superior performance setup. This is largely due to the fact that the major deficiency on the stock Sport suspension is not enough spring. The issue wasn't dampening. Again, DHP cannot overcome the lack of spring rate.

This is a good find, however, Adaptive Drive is available on the 5 Series (and other higher end models). It is not available on the F25 X3 or F30 in the form of DHP.

There's definitely a strong correlation among your experiences.

Generally, smaller diameter/greater sidewall height offers greater compliance over abrupt bumps in the roads such as potholes. The problem with potholes is that such a huge change is happening over such a small period of time that the suspension often times doesn't even fully compress before someone experiences wheel/tire damage. The only real good solution against pothole damage is sidewall height and non-RFT. DHP helps, but it is generally secondary. Using exon's terms... the transient state for potholes happens so quickly that the suspension is not really equipped to respond to the change.

With that being said, the increased "stiffness" of a RFT usually doesn't overcome the performance decrease from increased unsprung weight. If RFTs were so great, then why do the 2016 340i Track Package and the M3 come with non-RFT tires stock?

Fine- I'll acquiesce.

OP- per Polo08816 you should strongly consider a 335i w/ BMW's quasi-aftermarket M-Performance coil-over kit, an S4 w/ performance diff, any GM magna-ride product, or body on-frame truck with leaf springs...

If you insist on an X3, be sure to stay away from DHP; the benefits of a DDC, Performance Control and Variable Sport Steering couldn't possibly be worth the risk that one of their required sub-systems might fail, ultimately costing more to repair than simpler (albeit less effective) shock/spring set-up.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by cSurf

Fine- I'll acquiesce.

OP- per Polo08816 you should strongly consider a 335i w/ BMW's quasi-aftermarket M-Performance coil-over kit, an S4 w/ performance diff, any GM magna-ride product, or body on-frame truck with leaf springs...

If you insist on an X3, be sure to stay away from DHP; the benefits of a DDC, Performance Control and Variable Sport Steering couldn't possibly be worth the risk that one of their required sub-systems might fail, ultimately costing more to repair than simpler (albeit less effective) shock/spring set-up.

Hey, don't forget, I convinced my GF to factory order a 2016 BMW X3 3.5i. We're flying to Spartansburg, SC next Wednesday to pick it up at the BMW Performance Center. With that being said, I'm not going to be a BMW fanboy and worship certain options because of a few buzz words on BMW's site. I believe every component on the vehicle should be evaluated thoroughly before purchase. There are quite a number of options that simply don't deliver improvement that justifies the cost.

With that being said, if you truly want to cure the problems that DHP is trying to mitigate (which is a lack of spring), you're better off with a coilover system such as the KW V2.

Performance Control - torque vectoring using brakes. Meh.

Variable Sport Steering - another type of steering rack with a different ratio.

[NOITALL]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Hey, don't forget, I convinced my GF to factory order a 2016 BMW X3 3.5i. We're flying to Spartansburg, SC next Wednesday to pick it up at the BMW Performance Center. With that being said, I'm not going to be a BMW fanboy and worship certain options because of a few buzz words on BMW's site. I believe every component on the vehicle should be evaluated thoroughly before purchase. There are quite a number of options that simply don't deliver improvement that justifies the cost.

With that being said, if you truly want to cure the problems that DHP is trying to mitigate (which is a lack of spring), you're better off with a coilover system such as the KW V2.

Performance Control - torque vectoring using brakes. Meh.

Variable Sport Steering - another type of steering rack with a different ratio.

What's an X3 3.5?

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Hey, don't forget, I convinced my GF to factory order a 2016 BMW X3 3.5i. We're flying to Spartansburg, SC next Wednesday to pick it up at the BMW Performance Center. With that being said, I'm not going to be a BMW fanboy and worship certain options because of a few buzz words on BMW's site. I believe every component on the vehicle should be evaluated thoroughly before purchase. There are quite a number of options that simply don't deliver improvement that justifies the cost.

With that being said, if you truly want to cure the problems that DHP is trying to mitigate (which is a lack of spring), you're better off with a coilover system such as the KW V2.

Performance Control - torque vectoring using brakes. Meh.

Variable Sport Steering - another type of steering rack with a different ratio.

Kudos on the 35i. Enjoy it in good health.

With regard to DHP, we'll have to agree to disagree (I hope/suspect you picked up on my sarcasm). We'll also have to agree to disagree on what springs/dampeners do (stiffer springs <> more compliment and less confused rebound).

For the OP's benefit, I have owned a 2011 xDrive35i without DHP and 2015 xDrive35i with DHP and the later was significantly more composed (both more comfortable and more responsive; eg. over uneven pavement multiple-rebounding was eliminated). That said, I don't keep cars outside of warranty and don't pay much mind to the probability of failure and the estimated future cost of parts and labor. My sole calculus is cost/perceived benefit of the option. For $1400, DHP makes sense to me.
Particularly when replicating just the suspension element of DHP will cost $3500+install in the aftermarket (KW DDC retrofit kit).

Keep us posted OP!

[halfmoonclip]

Yep, I've been carpetbombed with responses, and they are appreciated. The PP who noted that I likely can't test hop such a car is likely dead nuts on....as I said, our salesman had never seen nor sold one.
So we'll hold on that for now, and it does simplify things a bit. BMW's assortment of packages can be overwhelming.
We are torn among an Audi Allroad (we currently have an Avant), a Q5 or an X3. I love my X1, and did test hop a new X1 (I'll keep the one I have, thank you!), but the new model does offer more space. The car will be mostly my bride's tho' we use her's as the tripmoblile.
I'll let you know how it shakes out; thanks for the comebacks.
Moon

[exon]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

DHP/EDC does NOT alter fluid viscosity. Like we've discussed before, it is not equivalent to GM's Magnetic Ride Control. Not even close. Also, if the DHP damper replacement cost is 2-3x the cost of a traditional damper is the price increase "nominal"?

Changing the fluid viscosity isn't the only way to change damping, you can change the valve sizing quite quickly too

Originally Posted by Polo08816

Again, if DHP is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer a M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan.

here, let me rephrase the sentence for you: (j/k)

"Again, if M Performance Suspension kit (static suspension) is so great, why does BMW even bother to offer DHP for the F30 3 Series RWD sedan. "

Originally Posted by Polo08816

The issue wasn't dampening. Again, DHP cannot overcome the lack of spring rate.

Since spring, damping and bushing works as a system, I prefer a holistic view. Soft spring is not necessarily bad, high spring rate doesn't guarantee awesome. Viewing the components in such isolation is overly simplistic IMHO.

Also DHP, high-spring rate, good tires are not exclusive of each other, so I see the "DHP vs firm spring", or "DHP vs tires" as apple to orange comparisons.

But, I think both of us understands in detail what suspensions we are getting into. We may have to agree to disagree on this topic, given our very different usage of vehicles, value perspective and very different vehicles.