[kyriian]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

People buy them for Green cred and then use them like normal people, funny.

It still astounds me how can so many people willing to plop down a huge amount of money for a vehicle that they aren’t willing to spend just maybe a little time to get to know and make better use of in their use case. It’s not even about being a car enthusiast, it’s about how laissez faire people can be, it’s a fucking expensive purchase.

The manufacturers can do a better job for sure to make these things known to the consumer and make their vehicles more user friendly to even the lowest common denominator as well. Not everyone is going to be a techno nerd willing to spend time diving through the menus.

Yes I’m in the market for a PHEV to replace the family X5, because as I preached many times, use case works for me. And you can damn well know it I’d be spending maybe just 10-20 minutes to make best use of an expensive purchase

[XutvJet]

It's interesting how this thread has just become more and more of a political bitch session by those that hate EVs and being upset about the "Green Grift" or whatever the F that means. This thread stinks more and more of politics and the anger of one particular politcal party based on the those I see starting to respond more and more. Sad that it always comes down to this crap. So much for debating, listening, and compromise.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

It's interesting how this thread has just become more and more of a political bitch session by those that hate EVs and being upset about the "Green Grift" or whatever the F that means.

If you had taken the time to watch this video you would know something about the "Green Grift". But I know you're not real big on facts so carry on trying to insult others rather than engage in honest discourse.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

It's interesting how this thread has just become more and more of a political bitch session by those that hate EVs and being upset about the "Green Grift" or whatever the F that means. This thread stinks more and more of politics and the anger of one particular politcal party based on the those I see starting to respond more and more. Sad that it always comes down to this crap. So much for debating, listening, and compromise.

Wait, wait, wait.

This thread is more and more political, to you?


W
T
H do you think the problem for millions of people is?
Political force bs, that's what.

Geez.

* Not one post have I bashed ev's. Not one post bashing ev owners. I don't give 2 pistachios as to what people want to drive. Go for it. Do what you want...

WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

Prescribing what I should/must drive is the thorn.

[M5Rick]

There's a song called Airport by a well known band and every time I hear it I think of the Luton and Gatwick car parks

[Tomazius]

My beliefs are on Hybrids and sustainable fuel using same old ICE's

[Car-Addicted]

Would-be Tesla buyers snub company as Musk's reputation dips
Mon, Apr 1, 2024
Caliber's "consideration score" for Tesla, provided exclusively to Reuters, fell to 31% in February, less than half its high of 70% in November 2021 when it started tracking consumer interest in the brand.
Tesla's consideration score fell 8 percentage points from January alone even as Caliber's scores for Mercedes, BMW and Audi, which produce gas as well as EV models, inched up during that same period, reaching 44-47%.
Reuters spoke to five marketing, polling and car experts who said controversies surrounding Musk's increasingly right-wing politics and public statements are weighing on Tesla's brand and demand.
"It is hard enough to win sales without getting into politics," said Tim Calkins, a marketing professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management.
Brand valuation consultancy Brand Finance found Tesla's reputation fell in 2023 in the United States, the Netherlands, France, United Kingdom, and Australia. Tesla's reputation did not suffer in China, where access to news on the company and its CEO may have been limited, and Germany.
Kat Beyer, a climate activist in Wisconsin, said she wanted to avoid Tesla because of Musk's support for Republicans, but wound up buying a Model Y last year because of a lack of EVs with reliable charging infrastructure.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...100751111.html

So it really is about politics when it comes to one particular group.
I guess since Musk is now a right-wing zellot I should run right out and buy a Tesla. When Pigs fly.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Tomazius

My beliefs are on Hybrids and sustainable fuel using same old ICE's

I consider most "Hybrids" the worst of both worlds. We can do so much better. When battery technology gets away from dangerous and environmentally damaging batteries and systems are developed that run the ICE in conjunction with the EV power we may be getting somewhere. When this combination allows small displacement turbos combined with EV's to have the range of a ICE and the horse power and torque of a far greater displacement ICE I might be a buyer. As long as the company shares my political views.

[Tomazius]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I consider most "Hybrids" the worst of both worlds. We can do so much better. When battery technology gets away from dangerous and environmentally damaging batteries and systems are developed that run the ICE in conjunction with the EV power we may be getting somewhere. When this combination allows small displacement turbos combined with EV's to have the range of a ICE and the horse power and torque of a far greater displacement ICE I might be a buyer. As long as the company shares my political views.

Well that comes out as politics now. When talking green one should be vary of the other side of the world doing same, if not, don't really see the point, sorry. From a consumer POV we can see how popular a Prius is, hell that thing goes like 3.8 liters/100km, taxi and uber-like people love it, if the looks weren't of an issue, I might consider myself one too

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

It's interesting how this thread has just become more and more of a political bitch session by those that hate EVs and being upset about the "Green Grift" or whatever the F that means. This thread stinks more and more of politics and the anger of one particular politcal party based on the those I see starting to respond more and more. Sad that it always comes down to this crap. So much for debating, listening, and compromise.

From the beginning of the modern reintroduction of the electric car in 1990 as purposed by CARB-initiated California pollution legislation, the topic of EV has been political. Since the passing of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which allowed for a Federal $3,750 tax credit for individuals to claim for purchase of hybrids. Then that tax credit doubled in 2009 under the American Recovery Act (max. $7,500) for BEV, which was extended and revamped under the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. That Act also drastically and massively increased Federal investment in EV adoption.

On top of the sun setting of the ICE by California legislation beginning in 2026 and finishing to 100% in 2035, with possibly 17 other "CARB" states following along.

So why would the discussion not be political.

[Schn3ll]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

From the beginning of the modern reintroduction of the electric car in 1990 as purposed by CARB-initiated California pollution legislation, the topic of EV has been political. Since the passing of the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which allowed for a Federal $3,750 tax credit for individuals to claim for purchase of hybrids. Then that tax credit doubled in 2009 under the American Recovery Act (max. $7,500) for BEV, which was extended and revamped under the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. That Act also drastically and massively increased Federal investment in EV adoption.

On top of the sun setting of the ICE by California legislation beginning in 2026 and finishing to 100% in 2035, with possibly 17 other "CARB" states following along.

So why would the discussion not be political.

EV’s are so good, that the government has tried to bribe you to take them first and then mandate them after that didn’t work. All while actively ignoring the environmental impact of the manufacture prior to sale and after the car is no longer usable (batteries in scrap heap). Very convenient - “ZERO EMISSIONS” folks! All the while massive grants and preferential lending is given by governments to manufacturers to perpetuate this nonsense.

Nope, not political at all

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I consider most "Hybrids" the worst of both worlds. We can do so much better. When battery technology gets away from dangerous and environmentally damaging batteries and systems are developed that run the ICE in conjunction with the EV power we may be getting somewhere. When this combination allows small displacement turbos combined with EV's to have the range of a ICE and the horse power and torque of a far greater displacement ICE I might be a buyer. As long as the company shares my political views.

I think series hybrids are the answer. Much smaller batteries. But the engine has to be reimagined using different materials, different cylinder designs and different architecture. Bump ICE to 60% or higher efficiency, driving a generator and using a battery for surge and regen braking. That's the EV I'll buy.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Interesting article stating used EV values are experiencing such rapid devaluation from new because people view them the same as a used laptop.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...650ee662&ei=14

Nice and shiny when EV's are newly bought or more likely leased then as time passes they are handed back and are looked at as something with a very limited time span with unwittingly adding to their climate crises of being dumped and scrapped of their own EV making.

[Leucosticte]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Why plug-in hybrids consume (much) more fuel than expected
A recent study published by the European Commission reports that plug-in hybrid cars are actually considerably more polluting than carmakers claim. On average, they produce around 3.5 times the emissions that they theoretically should, with drivers using more fuel than initially estimated.
To explain this difference, the report points out that drivers don't typically use these hybrids in electric mode as often as they could, whereas in testing, the automakers use them in an optimized way. Owners of these vehicles make much more medium- to long-distance journeys on secondary or trunk roads, where the combustion engine is put to work, rather than at low speeds in town, where the electric motor takes over.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...9c1d365a&ei=19

Lugging around 800lbs of batteries increases fuel consumption. Who Knew?

My uncles plug in hybrid volvo gets about 22 mpg. Which ends up being only about 2 more mpg than my E92 which is crazy to me considering that I'm not a conservative driver by any means.

[Car-Addicted]

Police caught up with a stolen Tesla after it ran out of battery during a car chase
The Tesla belonged to Fox 11 anchor and reporter Susan Hirasuna, who told the outlet the car disappeared after she parked it near the United Theater in downtown Los Angeles.
Hirasuna said she discovered the Tesla had been stolen after she left a nearby concert on Thursday evening.
The stolen car was fortunately low on charge when it was taken, with Hirasuna's Tesla app estimating that the EV's battery was down to just 15 miles of range, the report said.
The Los Angeles Police Department had already attempted to stop the car after it was reported for reckless driving before she had even had a chance to file a report.
Despite considering halting the vehicle with a Precision Immobilization Technique (PIT) maneuver, where officers try and force a vehicle to turn 180 degrees, causing it to stall and stop, police instead decided to follow it until it ran out of power, the report said.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...4e2ec2a17&ei=6

So when all the police cars switch to EV's you just have to run around until they run out of juice.

[Car-Addicted]

On a related observation, If people buying SUV's who will never see a dirt road would switch to the 2wd estate/wagon with same engine and load capacity they would save about 20% on fuel consumption but it's really not about the environment is it.

[Car-Addicted]

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

The easy answer is to not use massive amounts of water for most EV fires. The EV blanket method will be better much of the time. Modern problems require modern solutions.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

So, to the layman this water used to douse an EV fire travels down drains back into the water system to be filtered to be used again speaking very openly and these water board filteration systems are questionable to remove the poison contamination from fire ravaged EV batteries.

[gblansten]

My guess is that the runoff from EV fires will become a leading cause of death in industrialized societies. Since most EVs will catch fire we are talking about millions of cars immolating and only large amounts of water will be used to quench though conflagrations. You could also see droughts occurring from this as well.

Once society collapses back into a more agrarian, rural and decentralized life then we can try to rebuild again.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by gblansten

The easy answer is to not use massive amounts of water for most EV fires. The EV blanket method will be better much of the time. Modern problems require modern solutions.

Maybe like a beaker with 100ml of water?
When it comes to ground water contamination measurements are in part per million.
Reaction of Lithium and Water

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Maybe like a beaker with 100ml of water?
When it comes to ground water contamination measurements are in part per million.
Reaction of Lithium and Water

I see a candle. I haven't clicked on the video yet. I need reassurance this isn't a stealth Elton John video.